1726 plate money 5 kopeks

[bobh]

I'm pretty sure this is a fake or modern replica (NOT a "novodel"):

http://www.auktionen-fruehwald.com/product...products_id=740

There is a reference to the fakes of this series in the JRNS # 81 and #95, but I can't seem to lay my hands on those issues just now. Does anyone think it might be possibly genuine?

I sent a message to the sellers ... will see what they have to say.

[Mike Shaver]

LOOK ON RUSSIAN FAKES UNDER "PLATES"

[grivna1726]

Does anyone think it might be possibly genuine?

 

I do.

 

The style is very refined compared to fake "novodels" I have seen elsewhere on the net and similar to a genuine 5 kopeks novodel which I have seen in real life.

 

That said, I am not certain that it is real, I just think that it probably is.

 

Note that this is the only image I can see:

 

I cannot see the enlarged image, getting this error message when I try:

"Warning: getimagesize(images/product_images/popup_images/740A.jpg) [function.getimagesize]: failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /usr/www/users/frueh/popup_image.php on line 32"

[RW Julian]

I'm pretty sure this is a fake or modern replica (NOT a "novodel"):

http://www.auktionen-fruehwald.com/product...products_id=740

There is a reference to the fakes of this series in the JRNS # 81 and #95, but I can't seem to lay my hands on those issues just now. Does anyone think it might be possibly genuine?

I sent a message to the sellers ... will see what they have to say.

This has not been listed as a fake in the JRNS.

 

RWJ

[bobh]

(getting out the Brekke books and Vol. I of my Bitkin reference ... )

 

There is a very good article by Ron Zander in the 1997 Brekke supplement about these coins. Unfotunately, the only novodel depicted there is the same as in the original Brekke (No. 41A) which would correspond to Bitkin H356 (found on p. 435 of the 2003 edition). However, Mr. Zander did state that there were "two [novodel types] of the piatak". I am assuming that he means two Class 2 novodels because both Bitkin and Brekke list a third type; Mr. Brekke also lists the first (Brekke 38) as a "Class 2" novodel, whereas Mr. Bitkin states that this one was struck from rusty original dies, which would make it a Class 1 novodel.

 

Fortunately, Bitkin does include illustrations for all three types. If you compare the auction piece with these, I think you would agree that it doesn't match any of the illustrations. For example:

 

1. The last character in the word "ЕКАТЕРИНЬБУРХЪ" is a hard sign (твёрдый знак) on both the Class 2 novodels depicted in Bitkin, although the originals seem to have used a soft sign there (maybe they needed to save space since it was such a long word?) The auction coin also appears to have a terminal soft sign instead of the hard sign which should appear if it is a true novodel and not just a fantasy or replica (see also Randolph Zander's article in the Brekke 1997 supplement which mentions this very difference). In the auction coin, you can compare the hard sign after "КОПЕѣКЪ" with the terminal letter of "ЕКАТЕРИНЬБУРХЪ". They look very different!

 

2. The digits of the date appear much too close together in the auction coin.

 

3. The letter size of the legends seems too big, even when one considers that the image may have been cropped too closely (the edges of the left and right sides seem to be missing).

 

Besides these things, the ridiculously low estimate of €250.- would indicate that this coin didn't cost very much in the first place. I'm sticking by my guns and still call it a fake.

[WCO]

... I ...still think it is a fake.

 

Agreed, the last sold Novodel was on the last Mr. Elmen's auction lot 529. This "coin" is very different from it.

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

(getting out the Brekke books and Vol. I of my Bitkin reference ... )

 

There is a very good article by Ron Zander in the 1997 Brekke supplement about these coins. Unfotunately, the only novodel depicted there is the same as in the original Brekke (No. 41A) which would correspond to Bitkin H356 (found on p. 435 of the 2003 edition). However, Mr. Zander did state that there were "two [novodel types] of the piatak". I am assuming that he means two Class 2 novodels because both Bitkin and Brekke list a third type; Mr. Brekke also lists the first (Brekke 38) as a "Class 2" novodel, whereas Mr. Bitkin states that this one was struck from rusty original dies, which would make it a Class 1 novodel.

 

Fortunately, Bitkin does include illustrations for all three types. If you compare the auction piece with these, I think you would agree that it doesn't match any of the illustrations. For example:

 

1. The last character in the word "ЕКАТЕРИНЬБУРХЪ" is a hard sign (твёрдый знак) on both the Class 2 novodels depicted in Bitkin, although the originals seem to have used a soft sign there (maybe they needed to save space since it was such a long word?) The auction coin also appears to have a terminal soft sign instead of the hard sign which should appear if it is a true novodel and not just a fantasy or replica (see also Randolph Zander's article in the Brekke 1997 supplement which mentions this very difference). In the auction coin, you can compare the hard sign after "КОПЕѣКЪ" with the terminal letter of "ЕКАТЕРИНЬБУРХЪ". They look very different!

 

2. The digits of the date appear much too close together in the auction coin.

 

3. The letter size of the legends seems too big, even when one considers that the image may have been cropped too closely (the edges of the left and right sides seem to be missing).

 

Besides these things, the ridiculously low estimate of €250.- would indicate that this coin didn't cost very much in the first place. I'm sticking by my guns and still call it a fake.

You make a strong argument and after reviewing the Bitkin illustrations, I think you might well be correct in your conclusion. Certainly there are reasonable grounds to question this piece based on your points 1-3 (although I would not attach much weight to an auction estimate as an indication of whether or not it is an authentic novodel).

[bobh]

You make a strong argument and after reviewing the Bitkin illustrations, I think you might well be correct in your conclusion. Certainly there are reasonable grounds to question this piece based on your points 1-3 (although I would not attach much weight to an auction estimate as an indication of whether or not it is an authentic novodel).

I also usually don't put much stock in the estimates. Actually, I was quite surprised when I checked the PR from the most recent Elmen auction and discovered that the genuine 1726 pyatak plate novodel was sold for less than $1500 (the estimate was "only" $1000)! I would have guessed at least three times that amount, and when I wrote my original message, I hadn't checked the PR yet.

 

Actually, what ticked me off with this auction is that they are trying to sell a Paulinian overstrike 1793 pyatak for €400 and misrepresenting it as a regular overstrike 1793/0 (if there is any such thing) ... I think it was lot #721. I didn't want to tell them that they will probably not sell it for that price, since 1793 is the most common date for these things -- and after all, it is in pretty good condition. Who knows? But I did start to look a little more carefully at their other offerings, and this plate coin caught my eye.

 

And I also sent them a message regarding the attribution of the Paulinian overstrike; however, I didn't say anything about the estimate.

[grivna1726]

Actually, I was quite surprised when I checked the PR from the most recent Elmen auction and discovered that the genuine 1726 pyatak plate novodel was sold for less than $1500 (the estimate was "only" $1000)! I would have guessed at least three times that amount, and when I wrote my original message, I hadn't checked the PR yet.

 

The Goodman 5 kopeks novodel brought about $1000 when sold back in the early 1990s, so they seem to have not really gone anywhere in terms of price since that time. Maybe there's not much demand for them?

[RARENUM]

Lot 741 not original "Novodel"link: http://www.auktionen-fruehwald.com/product...products_id=741

Rarenum.

PS:Will add later images from my Novodels 1726 5 kopecks.

[alexbq2]

Lot 741 not original "Novodel"link: http://www.auktionen-fruehwald.com/product...products_id=741

Rarenum.

PS:Will add later images from my Novodels 1726 5 kopecks.

 

This looks like a very common low end fake, is this a reputable auction house?

[bobh]

This looks like a very common low end fake, is this a reputable auction house?

At this rate (2 fakes out of only 20+ Russian lots), if I were them, I would be very concerned about my reputation.