Pugachev ruble - what were they?

[gxseries]

I vaguely remember reading it off from worldcoinonline about something called the Pugachev ruble. What exactly are they and how scarce are those these days?

 

Also a picture will be great (didn't save it the last time )

[bobh]

I vaguely remember reading it off from worldcoinonline about something called the Pugachev ruble. What exactly are they and how scarce are those these days?

 

Also a picture will be great (didn't save it the last time )

Uzdenikov lists the Pugachev rouble on p. 383 of the 2nd edition. Images are on p. 388. The Pugachev rouble is a novodel struck on the ordinary silver rouble planchet from the dies of the Sestroretsk rouble. It's rarity is listed as "./", or R3. I believe there was one offered in the most recent New York Sale of Dmitry Markov.

 

There is also a trial coin from these dies struck in copper on the 5 kopek planchet, but it is apparently considered to be unique.

[STEVE MOULDING]

2 recent appearances (different examples)

 

Numismatica Genivensis Sale #4, Lot 1270, $58,000

Dmitry Markov, NY Sale 18, Jan 2008, Lot 1164, $100,000

[Scottishmoney]

I wonder if the fakes are out yet?

[STEVE MOULDING]

I wonder if the fakes are out yet?

Novodels are close enough in my book

[marv]

Novodels are close enough in my book

 

So Steve, is the 1804 US Dollar "...close enough" to a fake? It's a pure fantasy concoction.

 

I don't know why some poopoo novodels. They certainly have been popular with the major Russian collectors even in imperial times. Some novodels are impossible to tell from regular strikes; others use designs that are slightly different, and still others are pure fantasy. They are, at their best, wonderful examples of the Russian engraver's art, preserved, usually, so that the skill of the engraver is on display for all to appreciate. In some ways, they're like proof or pattern coins - never intended to circulate.

 

I differentiate official novodels from counterfeits and fakes, however some even collect these. For example, contemporary counterfeit halfpence of George III are popular and in some cases bring more at auction than official mint products. Tanner's reproduction of the Cromwell crown is rarer than the "official" Simon product and hotly pursued. W.J. Taylor's endless muling of Soho dies, including in some cases complete fabrications such as the 1805 "George III" two pence, always bring good money if well preserved.

 

No object has any intrinsic worth apart from what someone ascribes to it at any given moment (if you were dying of thirst, what would be worth more - a 2 carat diamond or a glass of water?), so it makes no sense to somehow elevate one type of coin over another.

Marv Finnley

[gxseries]

There is something bizarre about this, that is, even counterfeit coins are collectible. For example back when platinum prices were ridiculously low compared to gold almost 200 years ago, there were many crooks counterfeiting legit gold coins by gold plating counterfeited platinum coins. Now those are really expensive if you can find one. Novodel in my opinion is something strictly from the production of the mint, or at least, struck from the original dies with possible modifications.

 

Back to the original topic though, I believe what I saw was a fantasy Pugachev ruble, that is an image of him with a Orthodox cross on the reverse. I remember seeing it briefly on Krause catalog of world unusual coins. Any idea on that "coin"?

[grivna1726]

I vaguely remember reading it off from worldcoinonline about something called the Pugachev ruble. What exactly are they and how scarce are those these days?

 

Also a picture will be great (didn't save it the last time )

Here's one (with detailed information) sold in Switzerland in 2003: LINK