Need more help

[alexbq2]

Good Evening/Day/Morning Everyone!

 

Here's a curious situation that I do need your help with, and your help is always very appreciated! I recently bought 5 coins from a dealer/collector on eBay. The coin I need your input on is an undescribed variety of a 1876 20 koppeks, with a dashed (dotted) edge instead of a regular reeded edge:

 

Here's the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244039088

 

I am normally cautious enough, but this seller had some really great coins for sale, and bought some interesting things himself in the past. For instance I also got this coin from him:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244051529

 

and he sold these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244729061

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244046492

 

Interesting stuff! But that's the background, here's the issue. Once I received the 1876 20 kop I saw what I believe are the remnants of the reeded edge, that in my opinion was filed off and the coin re-edged with dashes. The seller swears by the coin and says that the edge is 100% original. I'm not infallible, actually often wrong, so I would like to here some opinions. If the general consensus is that I am wrong I will drop the issue, and happily keep the coin. Else, I will pursue this through whatever channels are open to me.

 

Here's the picture of the section of the edge that I believe best shows what's left of the reeded edge:

 

[BKB]

I do not think that there should be traces of the normal edge... If you go to Staraya Moneta forum, seller's name is Kazbek.

[vladk111]

I do not think that there should be traces of the normal edge... If you go to Staraya Moneta forum, seller's name is Kazbek.

 

I bought on Ebay some coins long tims ago from Kazbek ( this is his first name ) , at those time he had different Ebay ID.

He sold some very good coins and I considered all of them as genuine, however later he got some negative feedbacks and changed Ebay ID.

[sigistenz]

[quote name='alexbq2' date='May 15 2008, 01:45 AM' post='385379'

Good Evening/Day/Morning Everyone!

 

Here's a curious situation that I do need your help with, and your help is always very appreciated! I recently bought 5 coins from a dealer/collector on eBay. The coin I need your input on is an undescribed variety of a 1876 20 koppeks, with a dashed (dotted) edge instead of a regular reeded edge:]

 

Here's the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244039088

Hi, the coin seems to have been used as jewellery. That's the origin of the hole and probably also of the edge tooling.

[RW Julian]

Good Evening/Day/Morning Everyone!

Here's a curious situation that I do need your help with, and your help is always very appreciated! I recently bought 5 coins from a dealer/collector on eBay. The coin I need your input on is an undescribed variety of a 1876 20 koppeks, with a dashed (dotted) edge instead of a regular reeded edge:

Here's the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244039088

I am normally cautious enough, but this seller had some really great coins for sale, and bought some interesting things himself in the past. For instance I also got this coin from him:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244051529

and he sold these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244729061

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230244046492

Interesting stuff! But that's the background, here's the issue. Once I received the 1876 20 kop I saw what I believe are the remnants of the reeded edge, that in my opinion was filed off and the coin re-edged with dashes. The seller swears by the coin and says that the edge is 100% original. I'm not infallible, actually often wrong, so I would like to here some opinions. If the general consensus is that I am wrong I will drop the issue, and happily keep the coin. Else, I will pursue this through whatever channels are open to me.

Here's the picture of the section of the edge that I believe best shows what's left of the reeded edge:

I am not so sure that this is not as it left the mint. In 1874 there were experiments

with the edges on the 20 kopecks, almost certainly as a possible anti-counterfeiting

device. There were three varieties made:

 

1) Regular reeding (||||||||)

2) Slanted (\\\\\\)

3) Regular reeding (||||||||) with the letter X impressed into the reeding.

 

Perhaps this is an experimental piece? The dotted edge was in use before 1867

and it is possible that it was under consideration to be used again.

 

For those who are members of the Russian Numismatic Society, the special 1874

edges were written up by Craig Sholley in RNS Journal 77 (winter 2003–2004),

pages 12–16.

 

RWJ

[gxseries]

Alex, can you retake another photo? I'm somewhat puzzled at the moment.

[alexbq2]

Thank you for your replies, I guess that this edge is not a clear cut alteration as I thought. Frankly, I would rather prefer this to be a dotted edge, but the presence of what I believe are filed off reeds is (imho) a bad sign. Also I think that the dashes look suspicious, sort of rustic.

 

I am aware of the existence of the 1874 edges, but I've not seen them. I recently was outbid on this auction:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=190219326852

 

I asked the seller to send me the pictures of the edge but he never replied.

 

Mr. Julian do you have any pictures of the edges on 1874 coins? I've seen a photo of a coin with a mixed edge (\\\\\\||||||||) but not sure if any of them have signs of old reeds? What would happen if a reeded coin was re-edged at the mint? Would we still see some squashed reeds on it?

 

Sigistenz, the coin is holed but very crudely, and off center. I do not believe that the same person who punched that hole would spend time decorating the edge for aesthetic purposes. That's just my speculation of course

 

BKB and Vladk111, I did get a permission from the seller to start a forum discussion on this coin. Do you propose that I post on Staraya-Moneta?

 

Gxseries, I will attempt to take more pictures of the edge - it is tricky! We all know you to be very attentive at coin examination, so I hope you will spot something of interest.

 

Thank you all,

Alex

[vasil]

I have something even more strange on the edge of 20 kop 1866

 

[alexbq2]

 

Weird, but once again if I had to make a call, I’d say that on your coin a dotted (dashed) edge was “enhanced” with reeds artificially, that explains the irregularity of steps.

[alexbq2]

A few more images:

[alexbq2]

The other side

[grivna1726]

The other side

The dots seem to be unevenly distributed and to meander around the edge rather than "travel" in a straight line. Is this normal for the dotted edge used pre-1867? I'm assuming the dots were impressed into the edge from the collar during striking on those coins.

[BKB]

The dots seem to be unevenly distributed and to meander around the edge rather than "travel" in a straight line. Is this normal for the dotted edge used pre-1867? I'm assuming the dots were impressed into the edge from the collar during striking on those coins.

 

IMXO -- punched in by hand.

[alexbq2]

IMXO -- punched in by hand.

 

Thanks, that is my impression as well.

[grivna1726]

IMXO -- punched in by hand.

If so, then that suggests that it was probably applied after the coin left the mint.

[BKB]

If so, then that suggests that it was probably applied after the coin left the mint.

 

[grivna1726]

[alexbq2]

Was there a double entendre that my genteel mind did not get?

[bobh]

Was there a double entendre that my genteel mind did not get?

I think the implication was that at that period in history (1867?), a lot of things were still done at the mint "by hand" ... especially with patterns, etc. But I may be wrong.

[grivna1726]

I think the implication was that at that period in history (1867?), a lot of things were still done at the mint "by hand" ... especially with patterns, etc. But I may be wrong.

Unless I misunderstand, BKB was laughing at my phrasing, which was perhaps somewhat understated and suggested a degree of uncertainty which might not be entirely warranted.

[BKB]

Was there a double entendre that my genteel mind did not get?

 

Look, you have the coin in your hands. No one can see better than you if the dots were handpunched after the original normal edge design was removed. Do You see the traces of the old edge? Do You see that the dots are not identical in size and shape and unevenly spaced? If so, chances are this is a fake edge. How, you may have some level of doubt if you purchase it as a regular 20 kop piece. Then, you may argue who would go to trouble of faking the edge and then selling the coin as an ordinary coin. However, if you see all that and the seller "knows" about the edge -- I would say 99% fake and the seller is in on it. (IMXO)

[RW Julian]

Mr. Julian do you have any pictures of the edges on 1874 coins? I've seen a photo of a coin with a mixed edge (\\\\\\||||||||) but not sure if any of them have signs of old reeds? What would happen if a reeded coin was re-edged at the mint? Would we still see some squashed reeds on it?

Thank you all, Alex

Unfortunately, no additional photos. If the work was done at the Mint, then the

coin would have been struck normally (i.e. a reeded edge) and then put through an

edging device which would have added the dots. Had this been the case, one would

expect the edge to be somewhat deformed.

 

On the other hand this may be an antiquarian fake, made to fool a collector in late czarist

days. In those days, as now, collectors often purchased a strange specimen without

realizing the true nature of the piece.

 

RWJ

[alexbq2]

Look, you have the coin in your hands. No one can see better than you if the dots were handpunched after the original normal edge design was removed. Do You see the traces of the old edge? Do You see that the dots are not identical in size and shape and unevenly spaced? If so, chances are this is a fake edge. How, you may have some level of doubt if you purchase it as a regular 20 kop piece. Then, you may argue who would go to trouble of faking the edge and then selling the coin as an ordinary coin. However, if you see all that and the seller "knows" about the edge -- I would say 99% fake and the seller is in on it. (IMXO)

 

Hi BKB,

 

Thank you for spelling things out, but I'm afraid you misunderstood my purpose. I have no doubt that this edge is fake, and thus without raising an issue on this or any other forum, I contacted the seller with a request to return the coin. The seller refused stating unequivocally that I am mistaken and the edge is 100% authentic.

 

The purpose of this post is to try and convince the seller, who is perhaps an honest person but is under a false impression. I have sent him the link to this thread, and he now appears to be interested in validating his point of view by raising this issue on Staraya Moneta. I will create an account on Staraya Moneta, and participate in that discussion as well. Since you are a member of that forum I would appreciate if you would state your opinion if that thread is ever created. Perhaps the seller will change his mind, otherwise I'll raise a dispute.

 

Thanks,

Alex

[BKB]

Here is the link to russian forum:

 

http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5766

 

I doubt, however, that you will be able to return it.

[grivna1726]

Here is the link to russian forum:

 

http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5766

A comparison of the photos in the link makes the difference in the edges clear and the only logical conclusion obvious.