alexbq2 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I decided to start a new thread on account that the original thread was hijacked by my off topic discussion, and then moved back to a more interesting topic. I will profess my ignorance once more. I actually don’t know who Dr. Jon Kardatzke is. I have seen his name a thousand times usually related to major sales that normally don’t interest me, unless I’m looking for pictures of what some coin should look like. Well, I was continuing my search for wire Novodels and I found this site: The June 4, 2000, Dr. Jon Kardatzke Collection Parts II & III, Sale 5 http://www.goldbergcoins.net/catalogarchiv...4/chp0182.shtml I have not done my superimposition die comparison yet but this coin looks familiar: http://www.goldbergcoins.net/catalogarchiv...0604/014482.htm I was also surprised to see something like this: http://www.goldbergcoins.net/catalogarchiv...0604/014481.htm So who is Dr. Jon Kardatzke? And how much do we trust him, and his coins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I did a quick search regarding Dr. Jon Kardatzke. It looks like he owns/runs a museum in Witchita, and he managed to sell a penny for 115000 US! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 I found this interesting article. Here: http://www.torge.ru/aticl.php?p=num13&...9a0a8a8933def0f It is in Russian, but I'm sure some forum members will be able to enjoy it. The gist of it is that in 1847 Nikolas I signed an order to limit the sticking of Novodel coins to existing unaltered dies that are still in good condition. All old dies that were reengraved, newly cut replicas of old dies, original dies that were no longer in usable condition, and original dies that lost their counterpart dies as well as trial dies were destroyed. As a result 600 dies were destroyed, the mint had no dies left predating the rule of Paul I! This appears to have been done specifically to combat rampant practice of ordering large quantities Novodels by collectors and dealers. And to prevent future confusion amongst numismatists in identifying genuine state coinage from the Novodels that at that time were often struck in inconsistent metal as well as wrong weight. Another part that I found interesting is the request for Novodels by a trader 'kupetz' Eremeev. Who ordered 15 gold, 270 silver and 336 copper coins. Amongst the ordered coins were coins of Grand Duke Vasilii Dmitrievich, Vassilii the Blind, Ivan III. He requested that these coins be struck on larger planchets than the originals and should not be round but elongated and elliptical to resemble wire coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mummytrol Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 I found this interesting article. Here: http://www.torge.ru/aticl.php?p=num13&...9a0a8a8933def0f It is in Russian, but I'm sure some forum members will be able to enjoy it. The gist of it is that in 1847 Nikolas I signed an order to limit the sticking of Novodel coins to existing unaltered dies that are still in good condition. All old dies that were reengraved, newly cut replicas of old dies, original dies that were no longer in usable condition, and original dies that lost their counterpart dies as well as trial dies were destroyed. As a result 600 dies were destroyed, the mint had no dies left predating the rule of Paul I! This appears to have been done specifically to combat rampant practice of ordering large quantities Novodels by collectors and dealers. And to prevent future confusion amongst numismatists in identifying genuine state coinage from the Novodels that at that time were often struck in inconsistent metal as well as wrong weight. Another part that I found interesting is the request for Novodels by a trader 'kupetz' Eremeev. Who ordered 15 gold, 270 silver and 336 copper coins. Amongst the ordered coins were coins of Grand Duke Vasilii Dmitrievich, Vassilii the Blind, Ivan III. He requested that these coins be struck on larger planchets than the originals and should not be round but elongated and elliptical to resemble wire coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Very interesting article. Clear that early wire Novodels were made on the St. Petersburg mint for many different people, even some particular types of coins are mentioned. Distruction of about 600 dies was not the end of Novodel story. New dies of many earlier coins were made again, not necessarily on St. Petersburg mint, but it is well known about 1856 and 1870 (for all-Russian Industrial fair) orders on Ekaterinburg mint. I am not sure if there were wire coins among those though, but at least there were many coins of 18-th century made with new dies. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 One more addition. I looked up printed catalogue of that sale and it appears that wire Novodels in that sale were from Robert Hesselgesser collection and has nothing to do to Dr. Jon Kardatzke. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Very interesting article. Clear that early wire Novodels were made on the St. Petersburg mint for many different people, even some particular types of coins are mentioned. Distruction of about 600 dies was not the end of Novodel story. New dies of many earlier coins were made again, not necessarily on St. Petersburg mint, but it is well known about 1856 and 1870 (for all-Russian Industrial fair) orders on Ekaterinburg mint. I am not sure if there were wire coins among those though, but at least there were many coins of 18-th century made with new dies. WCO The article deals with the reasons for systematic destruction of used up dies at mints. The order by Nikolas I could have been reversed later by Alexander II, we know that novodels were minted until Alexander III stopped that practice upon the request from the Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich. Also, who’s Robert Hesselgesser then? Is he a disreputable low life peddling fakes, or can I assume that he is kosher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Saw Marv's description on his eBay catalog sale site: "Most of today's Russian collectors recognize the name "Hesselgesser." Many of the top slabbed Russian coins come with that name on the slab. Dr. Hesselgesser had begun his collection long before Russian coins were hot like they are now, so he was able to pick the cream of the crop for his collection. He sold his coins through a series of sales, mainly via Goldberg and Superior auctions." Sounds like a reputable collection! I feel better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Sounds like a reputable collection! I feel better Can you trace that your novodels were from his collection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Can you trace that your novodels were from his collection? I can trace all of my coins only to eBay But that does not mean that they are fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 I can trace all of my coins inly to eBay But that does not mean that they are fake. I have only asked about these particular novodels. I understand that you are trying to prove the idea about existence of such novodels. Please keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Here's an interesting development on the subject of the wire novodels. I was looking through the Petrov catalog, and he has many of them described in his tables. The catalog was published in 1899 so whatever novodels made would have been around by then. Also Petrov states in his foreword that all the images were drawn by him and his son from actual coins. It does not seem that Petrov differentiates between real coins and novodels. Here are a few examples from Petrov: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Here's a Peter kopeek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Petrov has more, but I'll just list one of Aleksei Michailovich coins: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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