alexbq2 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 They are very different in my opinion. Different dies. Only Gelos and WAG coins seems to be similar Here is the WAG denga rider on top of my coin. The WAG's crown I think is damaged, but the shape of the rider, and details such as the horse's leg being detached from the horse are the same. Here is the superimposition: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 the question is, who did make them and how many months ago? If you were following I have traced the dies back to the Gelos coin, which you say has documented history. This means that all these coins were made at about the same time. So when was the Gelos coin made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Gelos coin made probably as I think no later than 1930-th. WAG coin is very similar. The other ones AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED were made yesterday, if you wish. The other coins are different in my opinion. DIFFERENT! eBay coin is a fake. We are going in circles in here. I think this issue is over for ME for now. I'll ask for the permission to post the coin from the collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 alexbq2, Your coin looks OK to me. Just wire Novodels are not a popular kind. Regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Gelos coin made probably as I think no later than 1930-th. WAG coin is very similar. The other ones AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED were made yesterday, if you wish. The other coins are different in my opinion. DIFFERENT! eBay coin is a fake. We are going in circles in here. I think this issue is over for ME for now. I'll ask for the permission to post the coin from the collection. I'm sorry you feel that way. My goal was not to convince anyone specifically, but to empirically analyze the dies from the images that I have collected over the last few days. As I promised in the earlier post, I will make any relevant findings public. Since a coin can not be half fake and half genuine, I have done my best to match the dies to the coin that you say has history. There is one more coin with some history, provided by forum member Thee_Imortal_One. That coin came from Alex Basok, probably with some traceable history. I forgot to save it's images earlier, but you can find them on this forum. It matches one of the WAG coins in the die chain that I identified, so I could also start with that one. I will continue my analysis later, I think it could be useful to somebody someday. It takes time to go through images and compare them attentively. I can sort of see similarities that may allow me to add a few more WAG coins to this chain and maybe one more of silver eBay coins. I can definitely link one of the eBay coppers to one of the WAG coppers, but I see no link (at the moment) between Petr/Fedor Alekseevich novodels and Aleksey Michailovich Novodels. So unless, I will find an Aleksey Michailovich coin with some history, I do not think I could demonstrate their authenticity. If anyone sees a mismatch between the die images I provided, please point out the details that do not correspond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 alexbq2, Your coin looks OK to me. Just wire Novodels are not a popular kind. Regards, WCO I think And986 raised a good point. I have not found any reference on these, yet. I certainly understand why there isn't much information, as you say "wire Novodels are not a popular kind". I have heard (read) some respectable researchers state that they simply don't care for any Novodels, or at least the once that were not struck with original dies. Wires (real once), are still not very popular among the collectors. Although, in the last couple of months the interest seemed to have picked up a bit - at least on eBay. If interest in Russian coins keeps increasing, we will certainly see more information published on all subjects. But for now, I'll keep digging on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thank you for your patience, Alexbq2. Usually it's not a good idea to judge the pictures... There is a combination of factors why my posts are not so friendly. Nothing personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 I think And986 raised a good point. I have not found any reference on these, yet. I have nothing in my library on wire novodels. I assumed that the coins were probably fake, now I am far less sure. Your die linkage study is interesting and is causing me to reconsider my view on the matter of authenticity. I know of no other such information being published in the West, but maybe there is something in Russia. With a little fleshing out, I think this might make a worthwhile contribution to JRNS as original research on a poorly understood aspect of Russian numismatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 It's not only wire kopeks that is severely understudied. Let's go back to the original topic - overstruck coins too are not well studied either such as the late years of Elizabeth I 1 kopek coin overstruck over Swedish 1 ore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 It's not only wire kopeks that is severely understudied. Let's go back to the original topic - overstruck coins too are not well studied either such as the late years of Elizabeth I 1 kopek coin overstruck over Swedish 1 ore. Good point, gx. I have never seen such a coin in real life, only pictures in books and on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 As long as we are back on the original subject ... Are there any known fakes of Paul's overstruck coins such as the one in the link of the first message of this thread? Awhile back on eBay I bought one (1793/96) ... it was advertised as such, and luckily the price didn't go too high. I think I paid about $100 for it; it is in much better shape than the one in the eBay auction and is free of green crud. I would show it to you, but at the moment I am having some unpleasant issues with my webspace provider. Anyway, everything about it appears genuine, except that there is a little line along the edge. This could have been due to a planchet flaw, since it only extends about 1/4 way around the coin. Also, the line appears to be incuse rather than raised. I really can't imagine why anyone would want to make a cast copy of this -- the undercoin's design is plainly visible, but not so that it jumps out at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 As long as we are back on the original subject... Are there any known fakes of Paul's overstruck coins such as the one in the link of the first message of this thread? Glad to be back on track. Don't know how your thread got hijacked and turned into a massive argument on Novodels. Regarding fakes...absolutely they exist. I have a fake 1793 overstrike 5K. The edge has been smoothed away. A collector in Italy contacted me recently and showed the exact same coin down to every last die defect also with a smoothed edge. He'd picked up in a local flea market for a few bucks. There are also well done fakes that show an EM on the under-cipher coin. An extremely rare thing. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Glad to be back on track. Don't know how your thread got hijacked and turned into a massive argument on Novodels. Regarding fakes...absolutely they exist. I have a fake 1793 overstrike 5K. The edge has been smoothed away. A collector in Italy contacted me recently and showed the exact same coin down to every last die defect also with a smoothed edge. He'd picked up in a local flea market for a few bucks. There are also well done fakes that show an EM on the under-cipher coin. An extremely rare thing. Steve Thanks, Steve. I remember reading about the fake 1793/96-EM in one of the more recent JRNS. Could you possibly post obv/rev images of the fake (the one without "EM" on the undercoin, that is), please? That way I could compare them to my own coin. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Thank you VERY MUCH for these images, Steve! In the meantime, I was intermittently able to upload new images again to my coin gallery. Here is the coin I have: http://hairgrove-goldberg.com/Gallery/russ...l-restrike-1793 It looks like they were struck from different dies. There are rotated images with highlighting of the undercoin elements I could see which I placed below the top row of pictures. There is a picture of part of the edge as well, and the faint line I mentioned can also be seen. Not sure what to make of it...it doesn't go all the way around the edge, and it doesn't look like it has been smoothed because it is actually incuse. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thee_Immortal_One Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Well, here is my example. Original cipher is rotated right about 15 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thee_Immortal_One Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 This is the reverse. Bare traces of Curvy 'E' visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Well, here is my example. Original cipher is rotated right about 15 degrees. Hey! Guess what? Another P without the cross-bar. RWJ...what do you think? Very interesting to see this in the re-overstrike coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Hey! Guess what? Another P without the cross-bar. RWJ...what do you think? Very interesting to see this in the re-overstrike coins. I remember having this dicsussion with RWJ. If memory serves me right, RWJ's opinion was that P without the cross bar are die maker/engraver signature/special mark. I've seen it in much earlier roubles of Catherine II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I remember having this dicsussion with RWJ. If memory serves me right, RWJ's opinion was that P without the cross bar are die maker/engraver signature/special mark. I've seen it in much earlier roubles of Catherine II. Very interesting! We've seen it recently in an 1814 IM 2 Kopeck discussed here. And then there's RWJ's C2 5K that has an E without lower bar (so it looks like an F). I didn't know you also saw this in Roubles. Thanks Igor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I remember having this dicsussion with RWJ. If memory serves me right, RWJ's opinion was that P without the cross bar are die maker/engraver signature/special mark. I've seen it in much earlier roubles of Catherine II. I am pretty sure RWJ have evidence to prove that "... P without the cross bar are die maker/engraver signature/special mark". I think many collectors would like to hear such an outstanding story. How about worker at mint punched two I's instead of P (possible for several reasons, like P punch was broken or worker was too lasy or did not see much difference, etc.) or other reasons (like filled die), why these were dismissed? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I am pretty sure RWJ have evidence to prove that "... P without the cross bar are die maker/engraver signature/special mark". I think many collectors would like to hear such an outstanding story. How about worker at mint punched two I's instead of P (possible for several reasons, like P punch was broken or worker was too lasy or did not see much difference, etc.) or other reasons (like filled die), why these were dismissed? WCO WCO, your list of possibilities all seem reasonable , though the special mark theory is also interesting. It's still amazing to me that they built letters in pieces and didn't (for example) have a P punch. How hard could it have been to make a set of single letter punches? Is there a technical reason why they did this? Was a single letter too fragile (P cross bar kept breaking, for example). We sure wouldn't be having these discussions otherwise. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Heres mine. Very distinct II in "FIVE" but clearly a cross bar in "KOPbEKb" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 the flip side...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.