Maya Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 According to H.M. Severin there are four varieties of the Nicholas II 15 Roubles: 559 Large head, 2 letters CC behind neck cut 560 Small head, 3 letters OCC behind neck cut 561 Small head, 4 letters POCC behind neck cut 562 Large head, 3 letters OCC behind neck cut He only shows pictures of the Large heads, and considers #560 and #562 Scarce. V.V. Uzdenikov only mentions two varieties: 0321 Large head, which he refers to as "portrait of usual design" and 0322 portrait with small head He shows a picture of each, and rates #0321 as scarce and #0322 as very rare. The Large head picture that he shows has 3 or 4 letters under the neck (?), depending on how you look at it, the Small head picture appears to be Severin's #560 with OCC. Unfortunately none of the pictures are really great. It seems to me that the coins most frquently seen today are the two Large Head varieties, which we distinguish as wide rim and narrow rim types. These are from the recent Heritage auction. Wide rim: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...765968&rd=1 Narrow rim: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...721813&rd=1 This one looks a little different than the one above but also a narrow rim: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...765963&rd=1 (Sorry, I tried to isolate the pictures and post them by themselves but don't seem to be able to that.) Does anyone have pictures of the two Small Head varieties? What I would like to be able to do is put them side by side and study the variations and would really appreciate any and all help from the members of this forum. Thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Very interesting questions, Maya. According to the reference by V. V. Kazakov, there are actually three large head varieties among the business strikes; the two small head varieties are pattern coins, and there is also one large head pattern variety -- six in all. All the small head pattern varieties are extremely rare and are almost never seen, even in large auctions. I think the last time I saw one offered at auction was a "Monety i Medali" auction of 2004 or maybe 2005. I think it sold for over $100,000 at the time; today, it might bring several times that. In the Kazakov book, the "OCC" variety (listed as A1) is listed along with two "CC" varieties (A2 and A3). Even with the beautiful pictures offered, I cannot see any real differences between the two "CC" types. The head of A2 is supposed to be slightly wider than A3, whereas the rim of A3 looks slightly wider than that of A2. Except for one scarce edge variety [mintmaster initials (АГ) with no dot between them], all the prices and rarity grades are about the same. You can look at mine here: http://hairgrove-goldberg.com/Gallery/Russia_15_Roubles I would scan the Kazakov pictures for you, but I don't have time until maybe next week or the week after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Not my area at all Maya but thanks for posting something with a lot more content than the usual 2-liner that we seem to get here..."This looks fake. Any opinion?" . Even worse are the posts with an ebay picture and just two words..."Any opinion?". I agree the 2-liners sometimes provoke some interesting discussions but there's really very little thought that goes into them. It would be nice if the original poster could offer at least one additional comment. Anyway, sorry for moaning here but your post was refreshing! Thanks again and good luck with the research Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thank you Steve and thank you Bob. Bob, I would really appreciate your help when you have the time. A scan of the pictures from Kazakov would be great, whenever you can manage it. Does he show any pictures of the pattern coins? I would be curious to see what the reverses are like. Thank you for posting your own pictures. Your description is very helpful. You mention that Kazakov describes two varieties of the Large head with CC. What I found interesting in the pictures from the Heritage auction is that there seems to be a difference between the two POCC coins as well. I wish I knew how to isolate the pictures and post them without all the eBay copy. But if you look at these two pictures together there appears to be a the same kind of difference Kazakov describes for the CC variety. This one appears to me to have a narrower head and a wider rim http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...721813&rd=1 and this one, a wider head with a narrower rim. http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...765963&rd=1 It is especially noticeable when the pictures are slightly reduced and placed next to each other, preferably one under the other. At first I thought it was the lighting in the photo that made them look different but I am not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroc Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Here is one of them...3 letter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroc Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Sorry wrong one loaded.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Not my area at all Maya but thanks for posting something with a lot more content than the usual 2-liner that we seem to get here..."This looks fake. Any opinion?" . Even worse are the posts with an ebay picture and just two words..."Any opinion?". I agree the 2-liners sometimes provoke some interesting discussions but there's really very little thought that goes into them. It would be nice if the original poster could offer at least one additional comment. Anyway, sorry for moaning here but your post was refreshing! Thanks again and good luck with the research Steve In defense of us 2 liner artists - "brevity is the soul of wit" Sorry Maya, I have like 1 gold coin and its a ducat, so nothing to contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Sorry wrong one loaded.... Thanks jroc, that's great. I'm glad you also loaded the reverse. This photo does not seem to be of the same variety as the one shown by Uzdenikov #0322 (24 on p.57). Even though they are both of the Small Head variety, the proprotion of the head is different. The head of the one in the book is larger. I am saving the photo for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Thank you Steve and thank you Bob. Bob, I would really appreciate your help when you have the time. A scan of the pictures from Kazakov would be great, whenever you can manage it. Does he show any pictures of the pattern coins? I would be curious to see what the reverses are like. Thank you for posting your own pictures. Your description is very helpful. Here you go... Kazakov -- 1897 gold 15 roubles (business strikes) Kazakov -- 1897 gold 15 roubles (pattern coins) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroc Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 If needed, you can save any photo by a right click, save as and you canload just the photo from eBay or most other sites. This is a very interesting topic for me as I had no idea that there were so many variations. Are there also mintage stats of the various types. Can some one give me some good reference books that I can buy. I am getting more interested in collecting and what you don't know is dangerous. Again a great subject, since I was always focused on gold coins, and get lost and amazed at the details and knowledge of the members in all varieties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Thank you, Bob, for the Kazakov scans. The picture of the small head A1 closely matches the image in Uzdenikov. But take a look at the photo jroc posted. The proportions on that head are completely different. They are much more reminiscent of the 10 Roubles than the 15. jroc, where does that picture come from? Is this a coin that you have, or did you find the image somewhere else? About the distinction Kazakov makes between the large head coins (business strike) A2 and A3 with CC under the neck, I see the same difference between the two coins with POCC from the Heritage auction. In both cases, the larger of the two heads is somewhat flatter, wider, and coarser looking than the other one. What do you think? Is it just an optical illusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Thank you, Bob, for the Kazakov scans. You're welcome! The picture of the small head A1 closely matches the image in Uzdenikov. But take a look at the photo jroc posted.The proportions on that head are completely different. They are much more reminiscent of the 10 Roubles than the 15. jroc, where does that picture come from? Is this a coin that you have, or did you find the image somewhere else? It isn't like the other images ... I would say it is either a 7-1/2 rouble or a 10 rouble obverse. I don't have my books with me at the moment. About the distinction Kazakov makes between the large head coins (business strike) A2 and A3 with CC under the neck, I see the same difference between the two coins with POCC from the Heritage auction. In both cases, the larger of the two heads is somewhat flatter, wider, and coarser looking than the other one. What do you think? Is it just an optical illusion? Yes, there is a marked difference in size between the "OCC" (or "POCC") variety and the "CC" one. However ... I never noticed this before ... in this auction, Nicholas has an Adam's apple: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...em=170181765963 and in the other one, he doesn't: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...em=170181721813 Note that these are both "OCC" obverses, and there is only one variety listed which isn't a pattern ... the pattern large head obverse legend extends about 4-1/2 letters under the neck, so there must be a seventh variety! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jroc Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 It just sold on eBay...seller from Czech Republic.....so I looked but not bid... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=270210597503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 However ... I never noticed this before ... in this auction, Nicholas has an Adam's apple:http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...em=170181765963 and in the other one, he doesn't: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...em=170181721813 Note that these are both "OCC" obverses, and there is only one variety listed which isn't a pattern ... the pattern large head obverse legend extends about 4-1/2 letters under the neck, so there must be a seventh variety! I did not notice the adam's apple until you pointed it out, and of course I see it now. To me though, there was a difference in the overall shape/size of the two "OCC" heads to begin with but much too subtle to be sure, which is why I posted both of them. I am thrilled that you found real, concrete evidence of the difference. Seventh variety? Wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 It just sold on eBay...seller from Czech Republic.....so I looked but not bid... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=270210597503 A small head 15 Rouble selling for $760.00? I took a look at the seller's other completed items and noticed that he was also selling 7.5 Roubles and 10 Roubles. The pictures of the 7.5 R. are fine, but the head of the 10 Roubles is much too big. I think the seller mixed up the pictures of the obverse of the 10 and 15 Roubles coins. Which is a good thing, otherwise we would be looking at an eighth variety. Of course it's not something anyone would notice unless he/she had access to the Kazakov pictures and descriptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaE Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Yes, 15 Roubles got pretty expensive lately, you are lucky to find one for less than $700 of any variety and grade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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