Tauric Silver 5K on ebay

[one-kuna]

I do not like it all

[alexbq2]

I do not like it all

 

Too bad, I'm still hoping for a miracle though!

[STEVE MOULDING]

20K looks good. Dies match known examples.

 

Steve

[alexbq2]

The reverse of the 10 looks just like the one that was sold at the Alexander auction #4 in 2006:

 

[alexbq2]

Is it safe to jump the gun and congratulate the lucky owner?

[one-kuna]

I would say dies look like GM 7 for 20 k, however differ from it

[one-kuna]

the easiest coinage for counterfeiters; the $30.00 package consists of all fakes

[BKB]

I was never interested in this series except for the 2 kop. The only reason that I get excited by the legend of 2 kop is the way the words are shortened. No chance for imperial approval :-) This 2 kop piece is very peculiar. It is a mule. One side of the coin is GM 13 and the other side is GM 14. This is the first time I see this die pair, whatever this means... Other than that, it would be beneficial to show the actual coins to someone who understands the difference between the minting and edging process employed in 18th and 19th centuries, as well as, has some experience with modern day fakes of Russian silver.

 

There is absolutely nothing I can say by just looking at these photographs. However, the idea of this thing being real is very exciting. And, miracles like that do happen, I can attest to that.

[IgorS]

I was never interested in this series except for the 2 kop. The only reason that I get excited by the legend of 2 kop is the way the words are shortened. No chance for imperial approval :-) This 2 kop piece is very peculiar. It is a mule. One side of the coin is GM 13 and the other side is GM 14. This is the first time I see this die pair, whatever this means... Other than that, it would be beneficial to show the actual coins to someone who understands the difference between the minting and edging process employed in 18th and 19th centuries, as well as, has some experience with modern day fakes of Russian silver.

 

There is absolutely nothing I can say by just looking at these photographs. However, the idea of this thing being real is very exciting. And, miracles like that do happen, I can attest to that.

 

It is hard to get interested in this series, since there is not much out there to obtain. One could probably get all the 20's by die veriety, but that's about it.

I personally am interested in this mint, so I tried to get what I could from TM and for now I have 6 coins. Do not thnk I will be able to increase this number.

 

I agree with the rest you mentioned.

[BKB]

There was a time when even I could afford to buy and could obtain 10 kop and 20 kop pieces, but I never did... The reason I was never interested is in that I believe most of these to be novodels. The number of original patterns would be much more limited, just like the number of all 18 century patterns, including the copper patterns of the TM series. But, what do I know? I know now that I should have bought it when I had the chance. :-)

[IgorS]

There was a time when even I could afford to buy and could obtain 10 kop and 20 kop pieces, but I never did... The reason I was never interested is in that I believe most of these to be novodels. The number of original patterns would be much more limited, just like the number of all 18 century patterns, including the copper patterns of the TM series. But, what do I know? I know now that I should have bought it when I had the chance. :-)

 

I also think that many of them are Novodels. If you look at the bunch of 20s sold in one of the Superior auctions (or was it Goldbeg's) in 2004 or 2005 - all of them are most likely Novodels. I think I have originals, but what do I know?

[one-kuna]

There were no novodels for these series according Uzdenikov (2004).

St. Petesburg mint always used its own silver & gold for minting novodels.

St.Petersburg mint never had a silver of 38 finess (all silver Tauric coinage were using this finess).

[BKB]

I also think that many of them are Novodels. If you look at the bunch of 20s sold in one of the Superior auctions (or was it Goldbeg's) in 2004 or 2005 - all of them are most likely Novodels. I think I have originals, but what do I know?

 

I think you know more about it than most here... And, by the way, picture is worth a thousand words, you know...

[BKB]

There were no novodels for these series according Uzdenikov (2004).

St. Petesburg mint always used its own silver & gold for minting novodels.

St.Petersburg mint never had a silver of 38 finess (all silver Tauric coinage were using this finess).

 

With all my respect to the late Mr. Uzdenikov, he was not always right as you know. Did anyone ever checked the silver content of these coins in their collection...

[IgorS]

There were no novodels for these series according Uzdenikov (2004).

St. Petesburg mint always used its own silver & gold for minting novodels.

St.Petersburg mint never had a silver of 38 finess (all silver Tauric coinage were using this finess).

 

So maybe someone should check the finess of the Novodelish looking specimens, since they look mighty nice for such low silver content. On the other hand, I am pretty sure some analysis was done on Superior/Goldberg specimens I mentioned, because I heard the feedback, but did not see any reports.

[one-kuna]

I know that these are not fakes and have done specific gravity tests on each

I was wondering if you can share a result of your gravity test, what finess showed up, thank you

[LostOne117]

I was wondering if you can share a result of your gravity test, what fineness showed up, thank you

 

Average Specific Gravity shown after testing three times. Weight in Grams

 

20 K 29.5mm Sev 2374

Dry 7.1862

Wet 6.4441

Dif .7421

Specific Gravity 9.68360059

466.706 Copper (46.6%)

533.294 Silver (53.3%)

 

10 K 22.3mm Sev 2371

Dry 3.6025

Wet 3.2158

Dif .3867

Specific Gravity 9.31600724

706.647 Copper (70.6%)

293.353 Silver (29.3%)

 

2 K 12.5mm sev 2366 (?)

Dry .792

Wet .7136

Dif .0784

Specific Gravity 10.1020408

215.353 Copper (21.5%)

784.647 Silver (78.4%)

 

I realize these do not all add up to previous research nor really make sense. However, I am not aware of the actual pieces tested previously.

And... according to VV Uzdenikov "Silver Coins Struck in the Crimea" (Reprint from the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society No 73, Winter 2002 pg 19) "the average weight of the silver alloy used on one and the same denomination fluctuates way beyond any reasonable tolerance: e.g. on the 20 kopeck piece the average weight is about 8 grams, while individual 20 kopeck pieces vary by as much as 37.5% over or under weight.

Lastly, the fineness of the silver from which the Tauridian coins were struck varies by as much as 13% over or under the average of 38% fine - a clear proof of the lack of experience of the mint worker assigned to the task of assayer."

 

For those that are not aware; the "T" and the "M" punches used on the 20 and 10k (The 5 and 2k had them hand engraved) match the actual punches used on Tauridia mints other coins, in particular the Copper 2 and 5 k.

 

What is the "GM" reference? Can anyone post all the known die varieties?

I thought that there were only two for the 2 k.

[one-kuna]

Average Specific Gravity shown after testing three times. Weight in Grams

 

20 K 29.5mm Sev 2374

Dry 7.1862

Wet 6.4441

Dif .7421

Specific Gravity 9.68360059

466.706 Copper (46.6%)

533.294 Silver (53.3%)

 

10 K 22.3mm Sev 2371

Dry 3.6025

Wet 3.2158

Dif .3867

Specific Gravity 9.31600724

706.647 Copper (70.6%)

293.353 Silver (29.3%)

 

2 K 12.5mm sev 2366 (?)

Dry .792

Wet .7136

Dif .0784

Specific Gravity 10.1020408

215.353 Copper (21.5%)

784.647 Silver (78.4%)

 

I realize these do not all add up to previous research nor really make sense. However, I am not aware of the actual pieces tested previously.

And... according to VV Uzdenikov "Silver Coins Struck in the Crimea" (Reprint from the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society No 73, Winter 2002 pg 19) "the average weight of the silver alloy used on one and the same denomination fluctuates way beyond any reasonable tolerance: e.g. on the 20 kopeck piece the average weight is about 8 grams, while individual 20 kopeck pieces vary by as much as 37.5% over or under weight.

Lastly, the fineness of the silver from which the Tauridian coins were struck varies by as much as 13% over or under the average of 38% fine - a clear proof of the lack of experience of the mint worker assigned to the task of assayer."

 

For those that are not aware; the "T" and the "M" punches used on the 20 and 10k (The 5 and 2k had them hand engraved) match the actual punches used on Tauridia mints other coins, in particular the Copper 2 and 5 k.

 

What is the "GM" reference? Can anyone post all the known die varieties?

I thought that there were only two for the 2 k.

 

Thank you for sharing your test result, - only 10 kop piece is close to be corresponded its finess,

but 13% from 38 is about 32-33, so 29% is too far from 38%.

 

This sentences I translated from Uzdenikov last update on his article (2004), which may well override JRNS 2002 issue one:

""There were no novodels for these series according Uzdenikov (2004).

St. Petesburg mint always used its own silver & gold for minting novodels.

St.Petersburg mint never had a silver of 38 finess (all silver Tauric coinage were using this finess, kuna note).

 

G(eorgii) M(ikhailovich) is a major reference on imperial russian coins of Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich Romanov Corpus "Monety Tsarstvovaniya...."

[alexbq2]

Here's what I got out of Spassky:

 

"20 and 10 kopecks pieces occur with traces of circulation. 5 and 2 kopecks are rare , and mostly in AU or higher condition. The weight of the coinsvaries within +- 30% of average. The purity range is also wide, with average .448"

 

I got the English translation out of Diakov. His catalog lists 5 varieties of 20 kopeeks, weight 8.0gr +-3gr Yours matches #1146. 2 varieties for 10 kopeeks, weight 4.0gr +- 1.3gr Yours looks like a mule of the #1149 obverse with #1050 reverse. 2 kopeeks w 0.8 +- 0.3 gr. Yours looks like #1153.

[one-kuna]

Here's what I got out of Spassky:

 

"20 and 10 kopecks pieces occur with traces of circulation. 5 and 2 kopecks are rare , and mostly in AU or higher condition. The weight of the coinsvaries within +- 30% of average. The purity range is also wide, with average .448"

 

I got the English translation out of Diakov. His catalog lists 5 varieties of 20 kopeeks, weight 8.0gr +-3gr Yours matches #1146. 2 varieties for 10 kopeeks, weight 4.0gr +- 1.3gr Yours looks like a mule of the #1149 obverse with #1050 reverse. 2 kopeeks w 0.8 +- 0.3 gr. Yours looks like #1153.

 

showed test indicates that these coins are not under 38% finess category,

therefore they are out of Tauric mint production

[LostOne117]

I realize these do not all add up to previous research nor really make sense. However, I am not aware of the actual pieces tested previously.

Does anyone know what coins were tested to come-up with the 38 and when?

Was the set at the Hermitage tested?

[alexbq2]

showed test indicates that these coins are not under 38% finess category,

therefore they are out of Tauric mint production

 

Why do they have to be under 38%? The average appears to be 44.8%. Or am I confusing different scales?

 

Also, I'm curious how this average was calculated. E.g. per every known coin? In that case it would sway heavily to the 20 kopeek denomination.

[grivna1726]

Why do they have to be under 38%? The average appears to be 44.8%.

 

LostOne117 quotes Uzdenikov, who seems to be recognized by one-kuna as having some expertise in this matter (emphasis added):

And... according to VV Uzdenikov "Silver Coins Struck in the Crimea" (Reprint from the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society No 73, Winter 2002 pg 19) "the average weight of the silver alloy used on one and the same denomination fluctuates way beyond any reasonable tolerance: e.g. on the 20 kopeck piece the average weight is about 8 grams, while individual 20 kopeck pieces vary by as much as 37.5% over or under weight.

Lastly, the fineness of the silver from which the Tauridian coins were struck varies by as much as 13% over or under the average of 38% fine - a clear proof of the lack of experience of the mint worker assigned to the task of assayer."

[one-kuna]

thank you again LostOne 117 for this test

[BKB]

LostOne117 quotes Uzdenikov, who seems to be recognized by one-kuna as having some expertise in this matter (emphasis added):

 

While more than just one-kuna recognizes the late Mr. Uzdenikov to have had "some" expertise in this matter , as well as, other matters concerning Russian numismatics, I find the particular article mentioned by one-kuna to have a few conjectures unsupported in fact presented in the article.

 

1. The fact that there are no official mint records found to date that describe novodel production of this series, does not prove that such novodels were never minted.

 

2. While the appearance and metal content of these "coins" points away from production on SPB or any other mint, it does not automatically mean that these were minted on TM. (could have been private production, for all I care -- no records to point in either direction)

 

There are a few more "illogical closures" in the article that have no bearing on this discussion.

 

I, personally, like the look of all 3 coins pictured, and like the test results for 10 and 2 kopeks. If the opportunity presented itself, I would purchase these as novodels. Would need a letter from GIM to purchase these as originals.