Help with grading

[alexbq2]

I just got this 1787 20 kop coin, and it looks awfully nice. I would like to hear opinions from people who are more use to assessing a grade. I realize that I'd probably have to send it to NGC if I want to have a grade assigned, but I guess I'd like to know if it's even worth sending it. Thanks.

 

 

 

Hope these images show:)

 

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787sml.jpg

 

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787rSml.jpg

[worldcoinguy]

I like the uncleaned surfaces on that one. Without seeing it in hand, I would guess EF-45 or AU-50 from NGC assuming everything passes the test on authenticity.

[grivna1726]

I just got this 1787 20 kop coin, and it looks awfully nice. I would like to hear opinions from people who are more use to assessing a grade. I realize that I'd probably have to send it to NGC if I want to have a grade assigned, but I guess I'd like to know if it's even worth sending it. Thanks.

 

 

 

Unless you are planning to sell it in the near future, why bother spending the money to send it to a slabber?

 

It's a nice coin - well above average for its type and as such, attractive to knowledgeable collectors - whether in or out of a slab.

 

If you plan to keep the coin but get it slabbed anyway, don't be surprised (if you do decide to sell some years in the future) to hear that it's in the "wrong slab" or that "grading standards have changed" and you will have to pay again to have it re-slabbed.

 

(No doubt slab junkies will tell you that you are a fool for having purchased a good coin raw.)

[alexbq2]

Thank you both. And grivna1726 you do have a point. But slabbing is the "in" thing these days. I would be content to get a "slab it yourself" kit. But forgive my ignorance, how does an NGC slab go bad? Wouldn't an older slab demonstrate that the coin's been well taken care of? Also the nostalgic look of the "old school" slab should be attractive?

[grivna1726]

Thank you both. And grivna1726 you do have a point. But slabbing is the "in" thing these days. I would be content to get a "slab it yourself" kit. But forgive my ignorance, how does an NGC slab go bad? Wouldn't an older slab demonstrate that the coin's been well taken care of? Also the nostalgic look of the "old school" slab should be attractive?

 

It is your coin. If you want to get it slabbed, then my recommendation is to do so when you decide to sell, but in the end you should do whatever you think is best.

 

I have only one slabbed coin - an 1841 5 Roubles in an NGC holder, purportedly "MS-66". It came already slabbed when I bought it and I have never bothered to crack it out. Everything else I own is raw.

[Marina]

It is your coin. If you want to get it slabbed, then my recommendation is to do so when you decide to sell, but in the end you should do whatever you think is best.

 

I have only one slabbed coin - an 1841 5 Roubles in an NGC holder, purportedly "MS-66". It came already slabbed when I bought it and I have never bothered to crack it out. Everything else I own is raw.

 

I don not get it, why people thinking that slabbed coins "sucks" I can bet that everybody will pay MUCH MUCH more for ever "point higher" that says on slab-label.

 

So no debt about slabbed coin, it was the Best choise for anytime!

No matter you sell it or keep it. There is no way to keep coin better but in the slab, plus you know much close exectly what do you have, real nice graded coin or junk.

[STEVE MOULDING]

:

I have only one slabbed coin - an 1841 5 Roubles in an NGC holder, purportedly "MS-66". It came already slabbed when I bought it and I have never bothered to crack it out. Everything else I own is raw.

:

 

Likewise. I find slabs too impersonal and bulky. All but one of the coins in my collection is raw....a Finland Gold 20M came slabbed from one of Mr. Markovs auctions a few years back. Seems like there are slabophiles and slabophobes

 

Steve

[banivechi]

Seems like there are slabophiles and slabophobes

At least the european members are 100% slabophobes.

[Marina]

At least the european members are 100% slabophobes.

 

I'm sure any person who has opportunity to buy high quality coin (for example slabbed ms65) will pays fair amount if its slabbed and will NOT pays if it NON slabbed and described as FANTASTIC quality even if picture show all "amaizing" details.

[banivechi]

If you refer to US market you're right. But in Europe we don't use the ms65 grade, so we don't care about slabs. Matter of taste. BTW, many of aUNC graded and slabbed coins are XF for an european eye, so few chances for an advised collector here to pay a premium for a nice pack with barcode and hologram.

[grivna1726]

Likewise. I find slabs too impersonal and bulky. All but one of the coins in my collection is raw....a Finland Gold 20M came slabbed from one of Mr. Markovs auctions a few years back. Seems like there are slabophiles and slabophobes

 

Steve

 

I'm not a slabophobe. I just think it's a waste of money.

 

For items which are widely counterfeited and rarely seen as genuine items, I think it makes good sense to seek expert advice regarding authenticity (as opposed to grading) when considering a purchase from an inexpert or unknown source.

 

Most Russian copper plate money offered for sale is counterfeit. That is why I paid to have my grivna plate authenticated (not graded) when I bought it privately 24 years ago.

[Marina]

If you refer to US market you're right. But in Europe we don't use the ms65 grade, so we don't care about slabs. Matter of taste. BTW, many of aUNC graded and slabbed coins are XF for an european eye, so few chances for an advised collector here to pay a premium for a nice pack with barcode and hologram.

 

After all I`m sorry but I can not agree that slab doesn`t make a sence.

 

If I offer you 2 coins which is both looks UNC on the picture but one is slabbed ms64 and another not. I'm sure anybody from US, from Europe or from Indonesia will prefer Slabbed coin.

 

BTW we are live in USA and there is no sence to talk about NON slabbed coins since each point can make different with three zeros on final price.

 

I think slab has only one minus that you can not feel the coin, to hold it. After all that anyway better to sleep well with graded/authenticated coin.

[banivechi]

After all I`m sorry but I can not agree that slab doesn`t make a sence.

 

If I offer you 2 coins which is both looks UNC on the picture but one is slabbed ms64 and another not. I'm sure anybody from US, from Europe or from Indonesia will prefer Slabbed coin.

 

BTW we are live in USA and there is no sence to talk about NON slabbed coins since each point can make different with three zeros on final price.

 

I think slab has only one minus that you can not feel the coin, to hold it. After all that anyway better to sleep well with graded/authenticated coin.

As I said, slabbing a coin have sense in USA. But in Europe the challenge is to complete a set of hundreds of different coins, many of them extremely rare, not to acquire the best coin from one of millions minted, like the most US coins. An european collector is happy to find one really rare F coin from his country after years of hunting, and he will pay for it more money that is listed in Krause. You will be amazed how many rarities we bought from USA at ridiculous low prices (comparing to local prices). Or, you will be amazed too, to find how "cheap" comparing to US rare coins are the rarities from Hungary, Austria, or even Germany. Open a catalogue and at different chapters than US coins and you will understand how hard is to complete a set of Montenegro, for example. And, I will assure you, you must pay here much more than the price listed in Krause... We talk about different things.

[alexbq2]

Well, this is a very interesting discussion!

 

I'm not sure I understood what the disadvantages of slabbing are. I am not a frequent practitioner. But I think it is a nice way to distinguish a particularly nice coin in your collection. And it also keeps my grubby little fingers away from it. And as far as resale value, from what I've seen so far, lots of people do buy the slab and not the coin.

 

I had no idea though that NGC or others can declare all previous slabs to be obsolete, and force you to redo it. How does that work? If that's the case one should only slab before selling.

 

BTW, that eBay dealer who just slabbed his coins himself did pretty good in terms of sales!

[Marina]

Well, this is a very interesting discussion!

 

I'm not sure I understood what the disadvantages of slabbing are. I am not a frequent practitioner. But I think it is a nice way to distinguish a particularly nice coin in your collection. And it also keeps my grubby little fingers away from it. And as far as resale value, from what I've seen so far, lots of people do buy the slab and not the coin.

 

I had no idea though that NGC or others can declare all previous slabs to be obsolete, and force you to redo it. How does that work? If that's the case one should only slab before selling.

 

BTW, that eBay dealer who just slabbed his coins himself did pretty good in terms of sales!

 

in XXI Century to buy coin slabbed by professional third party graders more secure and i would say 95% of slabbed coins always pretty close to the grade indicates. Of course nobody perfect, but I will trust NGC slab than describtion even most popular dealer that coin in BU!! condition

 

About old and new holders, just people talking that coins in Older holders has been graded more conservatively.

But it can be (I think) for coins that did not get PL designation or CAMEO/ULTRA CAMEO designation... and rest I would say pretty same grades.

 

I can be wrong

[grivna1726]

Well, this is a very interesting discussion!

 

I'm not sure I understood what the disadvantages of slabbing are. I am not a frequent practitioner. But I think it is a nice way to distinguish a particularly nice coin in your collection. And it also keeps my grubby little fingers away from it. And as far as resale value, from what I've seen so far, lots of people do buy the slab and not the coin.

 

I had no idea though that NGC or others can declare all previous slabs to be obsolete, and force you to redo it. How does that work? If that's the case one should only slab before selling.

 

BTW, that eBay dealer who just slabbed his coins himself did pretty good in terms of sales!

 

 

It is not so much a disadvantage as a matter of personal preference.

 

When I drive my car, I know a "STOP" sign when I see one. I don't need to have someone tell me what the sign is, what it says, or what I should do as I approach it. Paying someone to do that for me is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

 

If I want to know if a coin is a nice coin, I can open my eyes, look at it and make that evaluation for myself. I don't feel I need to pay to have someone else do that for me.

 

I agree that there are many people who buy the slab and not the coin. That is why there are other people who crack out coins and repeatedly resubmit them for grading, hoping to one day get lucky and have the coin come back a grade or more higher. Then they can sell the coin for much more money because there are buyers out there who are only interested in what is written on the slab and not what is inside it.

 

If I ever send my coins for slabbing, it will be because I am planning to sell them at auction and because I have been convinced that there are enough slab buyers who will be bidding to make it worth my while. Until then, in my opinion, it is just a waste of money.

 

I understand that there are many people who disagree with me. That is fine and what they choose to do with their money is entirely up to them.

 

I take it you have not encountered the "grading standards have changed" phenomenon. Let's put it this way: what is "ms65" today might not be considered as such by buyers tomorrow, no matter what the slab says.

[Marina]

It is not so much a disadvantage as a matter of personal preference.

 

When I drive my car, I know a "STOP" sign when I see one. I don't need to have someone tell me what the sign is, what it says, or what I should do as I approach it. Paying someone to do that for me is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

 

If I want to know if a coin is a nice coin, I can open my eyes, look at it and make that evaluation for myself. I don't feel I need to pay to have someone else do that for me.

 

I agree that there are many people who buy the slab and not the coin. That is why there are people who crack out coins and repeatedly resubmit them for grading, hoping to one day get lucky and have the coin come back a grade or more higher. Then they can sell the coin for much more money because there are buyers out there who are only interested in what is written on the slab and not what is inside it.

 

If I ever send my coins for slabbing, it will be because I am planning to sell them at auction and because I have been convinced that there are enough slab buyers who will be bidding to make it worth my while. Until then, in my opinion, it is just a waste of money.

 

I understand that there are many people who disagree with me. That is fine and what they choose to do with their money is entirely up to them.

 

I take it you have not encountered the "grading standards have changed" phenomenon. Let's put it this way: what is "ms65" today might not be considered as such by buyers tomorrow, no matter what the slab says.

 

I complectly understand you.

 

Yes, we are all can open out eyes and see if coin good one or not. But for example if its just let's say silver ruble and looks like ms63-65 and you really guessing about it. For example if you want to sale it you will choose send to grade since price can be for ms63 $1500 and for ms65 - $5000+

 

Don't you want to make sure what coin you hold?

 

Every coins that we have in future will be sold by us or our childrens. And if you want to get better price it MUST be slabbed.

And I don't really like sentence "people buys slabs and not coins". I think if person prefers slabs he also prefers COIN in the Slab. and after if he bought it and it doesn`t looks such nice as grade indicates he can return it.

 

About RE-submiting I think its funny thing... Never even was thinking about it. But some people does it which is really loosing of time.

 

And again if I hold coin that cost $5000 I really do not care that $20-30 grading fees really matters. I will give you $100 to make sure that I have something special in the slab.

 

About changind grading style or numbers its all not real conversations...

Its same thing like goverment will changes Dollars design and old banknotes will be destroed...

[worldcoinguy]

I dont think there is a right answer or wrong answer in this debate. Personally, I fall closer to the slabophile in the spectrum. On more expensive 'big ticket' items I just like to have the piece of mind that I am buying an authentic coin. There are too many fakes out there and I do not yet have the practiced eye to pick out the good ones. I also like the added 'liquidity' that a slabbed coin gives the collector in the US, so I am not stuck arguing with a thick headed dealer or collector about condition or authenticity when it is time to sell.

 

So what were the other grade opinions on the original coin posted?

[alexbq2]

I dont think there is a right answer or wrong answer in this debate. Personally, I fall closer to the slabophile in the spectrum. On more expensive 'big ticket' items I just like to have the piece of mind that I am buying an authentic coin. There are too many fakes out there and I do not yet have the practiced eye to pick out the good ones. I also like the added 'liquidity' that a slabbed coin gives the collector in the US, so I am not stuck arguing with a thick headed dealer or collector about condition or authenticity when it is time to sell.

 

So what were the other grade opinions on the original coin posted?

 

Oh yeah! I think we got sidetracked. I am very curious about that.

[bobh]

>>So what were the other grade opinions on the original coin posted?

> Oh yeah! I think we got sidetracked. I am very curious about that.

I say: "choice XF". Although the detail is closer to AU grade, there is a noticeable planchet flaw (lamination?) on the obverse which might even keep it out of an NGC or PCGS slab. However, I don't know if these standards apply to coins this old or not. There is definitely enough rub on the crown to keep it out of the MS range, though.

[grivna1726]

So what were the other grade opinions on the original coin posted?

 

How about "aEF"? Coin is relatively well struck for its type with light wear. It would be better without the flan flaw on the portrait, but one has to be a bit forgiving with 18th century coins because few were perfectly made.

 

Overall, it is a superior example, certainly well above average for its type.

[IlyaE]

I agree looks VF35 to me

[BKB]

I would say at least an XF. Most of them were weekly struck. This one is well above average. This coin has almost no wear. Does not have any serious mechanical damage that I can see. 99% of detail is intact and clearly visible. The only question I would have if it is corroded. I see some spotting, but it may well be harmless. The fact that there is no mint luster is not fatal -- we are not shooting for a high MS anyway. :-) As to a numerical grading by NGC, etc. -- there is a possibility that NGC morons would grade it vf35. I have seen worse screwups on their part.

[Nordic gold]

My opinion in slightly different.

 

If a coin has a metal inperfection of this size practically ruining the portrait, the coin cannot serve as a single example of its type in a collection. This coin will only fill up its place in a date run. When only the reverse is visible maybe in an exhibition of a nearly complete collection this coin will serve fine.

 

The grading varies from country to country, seller to seller, time to time. Only dealers focus all their interest in matters like these.

[BKB]

My opinion in slightly different.

 

If a coin has a metal inperfection of this size practically ruining the portrait, the coin cannot serve as a single example of its type in a collection. This coin will only fill up its place in a date run. When only the reverse is visible maybe in an exhibition of a nearly complete collection this coin will serve fine.

 

The grading varies from country to country, seller to seller, time to time. Only dealers focus all their interest in matters like these.

 

While I would agree with most of this statement, please take in consideration that the "imperfection" also tells a story about minting technology of the period. Laminations of this sort are common mostly on russian crowns and minors of Peter through Anna. It is interesting to see that smelting technology did not improve through almost all of the 18th century, as shown by this particular lamination. While eye appeal is important, in my mind it may not be the single most important factor in determination of whether to buy a coin (unless you buy it not for a collection, but for an inventory) (IMHO)

 

Additionally, the lamination indicates that the coin is not a fake, which easy-to-spot and remember sign is very important for many beginning collectors of russian material judging from the vast majority of topics on this forum.