neuroseas Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I am guessing that it is probably just gold-plated. Did he weigh the coin? I would be interested to know what it weighs. Also, was it 22K or merely 12K or something else? As to the rest of the story, it should be obvious to anyone who is serious about collecting that it is a fantasy coin and as such of no interest at all. However, it seems that everyone who sells this is trying to pass it off as a genuine product of the Russian Imperial mint, which it isn't by any stretch of the imagination. Why not put it up on eBay as a souvenir piece or copy? That would be the honest thing to do. I dunno if he weighed it. he went off into the back and came back and said it was gold. (Why not put it up on eBay as a souvenir piece or copy? That would be the honest thing to do.) Just for the record, I put it up on e-bay as honestly as anyone could not knowing it could be a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuroseas Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Counterfeiters are not always careful and sometimes make careless mistakes.It sounds highly improbable to me. Dies can be repunched to correct errors and this is a trivial matter. Stealing gold coins from the Imperial Mint would result in far more serious trouble than a die-punching error. The coin is not consistent with dies used at the mint. Wherever this thing was made, it was almost certainly in someone's basement and not in the Russian mint. It is about as real as the unicorn is. BTW, welcome to coinpeople. Just a comment about stealing a coin from the mint. I agree, but maybe there was a harsh penalty for making errors too? Again, you guys are the experts and in fact it makes me happy to know that I didn't have 'the diamond in the rough' and let it slip my hands. Happened once to me already and hate to know it happened twice! Well, I guess I faired well considering it's a dud. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Please consider that this object exists due to efforts of an individual (unknown), whos intent was to take advantage of, by deceit, collectors (us folks here on this forum, for example). Who knows how many collectors have been swindled by means of this particular object, over the years. The sole purpose of this object is robbery. Selling it as a curio, or whatever, only continues the journey. It should be destroyed. If its gold, melt it. If not, a nice acid bath should improve its appearance, and put an end to this sham. I think there has been enough debate on this object , here on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Please consider that this object exists due to efforts of an individual (unknown), whos intent was to take advantage of, by deceit, collectors (us folks here on this forum, for example). Who knows how many collectors have been swindled by means of this particular object, over the years. The sole purpose of this object is robbery. Selling it as a curio, or whatever, only continues the journey. It should be destroyed. If its gold, melt it. If not, a nice acid bath should improve its appearance, and put an end to this sham. I think there has been enough debate on this object , here on this forum. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Acid bath??? We must protect the environment... Did you heard about hammered coins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Please consider that this object exists due to efforts of an individual (unknown), whos intent was to take advantage of, by deceit, collectors (us folks here on this forum, for example). Who knows how many collectors have been swindled by means of this particular object, over the years. The sole purpose of this object is robbery. Selling it as a curio, or whatever, only continues the journey. It should be destroyed. If its gold, melt it. If not, a nice acid bath should improve its appearance, and put an end to this sham. I think there has been enough debate on this object , here on this forum. I will respectfully disagree. Firstly, it is possible, and likely that this coin is a counterfeit from early 1900s, made to swindle shop keepers and not collectors. In this case it would not be gold, or low grade gold (e.g. 12K). I have also read somewhere that contraband smugglers would mint fake coins of good gold, as it was easier to avoid customs that way. I believe after 1917 some controbandists even obtained actual dies from what was left of the Russian Imperial mint, and used them to make there own coin. Second, I would disagree on the point of melting it. There are people who collect forgeries and counterfeits. I'm sure they would be interested. Of course the description of the item should reflect its actual status. And refund should be offered in case of a misunderstanding Thirdly, people on eBay should not act like gullible children. How much money was spent on those Chinese fake roubles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Second, I would disagree on the point of melting it. There are people who collect forgeries and counterfeits. I'm sure they would be interested. Of course the description of the item should reflect its actual status. And refund should be offered in case of a misunderstanding Perhaps it could be slabbed as an authentic forgery, and thus not be mistaken for a lowly genuine coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Perhaps it could be slabbed as an authentic forgery, and thus not be mistaken for a lowly genuine coin. Dangerous idea!!! Send that coin to these guys: http://www.nnccoingrading.com/ They'll slab it as MS-63 Russian 10 Kopeeks. And of course somebody on eBay will immediately snipe it with 4000 US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 that story about not knowing anything about it is complete crap... you are either a liar or just a moron... why would you sell something on e bay and know absolutely nothing about it especially if its "made of gold"? I think you just got stuffed on it... and now your trying to stuff someone else with it... I will wait to be convinced otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I will respectfully disagree. Firstly, it is possible, and likely that this coin is a counterfeit from early 1900s, made to swindle shop keepers and not collectors. In this case it would not be gold, or low grade gold (e.g. 12K). I have also read somewhere that contraband smugglers would mint fake coins of good gold, as it was easier to avoid customs that way. I believe after 1917 some controbandists even obtained actual dies from what was left of the Russian Imperial mint, and used them to make there own coin. Second, I would disagree on the point of melting it. There are people who collect forgeries and counterfeits. I'm sure they would be interested. Of course the description of the item should reflect its actual status. And refund should be offered in case of a misunderstanding Thirdly, people on eBay should not act like gullible children. How much money was spent on those Chinese fake roubles? Some comments: Point 1. This is probably not a contemporary counterfeit. Forgers normally pick the most common date and 1908 does not fit that category. It is far more likely that this is an abortive Lebanese piece. The civil war in that country put an end to the counterfeiting operations and I suspect that this was an issue which was terminated by the war. It has been reported that the Lebanese counterfeiters used dates that were either spurious or which had never been put into circulation, as in the case of the British sovereigns. Prior to 1917 those nations on the gold standard, including Russia, did not charge customs duties on imports or exports of gold or silver. It is only in recent times that customs problems have arisen in such matters. It is of course remotely possible that dies or hubs were stolen from the Mint after 1917 but the 1908 in question was not made with official hubs or dies and this therefore does not apply. Point 2. Agreed. Point 3. Agreed. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Thirdly, people on eBay should not act like gullible children. How much money was spent on those Chinese fake roubles? I hope you don't mean that just because fake Chinese roubles are being sold on eBay, that it must be OK to sell coins like this? As to the "gullible children" bit ... I also agree, but there are lots of sellers out there who still supply ample amounts of "candy" in the hopes that just one gullible child will go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 I hope you don't mean that just because fake Chinese roubles are being sold on eBay, that it must be OK to sell coins like this? As to the "gullible children" bit ... I also agree, but there are lots of sellers out there who still supply ample amounts of "candy" in the hopes that just one gullible child will go for it. Of course not, 2 wrongs do not make a right. I'm just much more dismayed by sellers who will peddle manufactured fakes in large quantities, than these guys who seem to have stumbled over some old fantasy coin. As far as the "gullible" remark, I do not mean to offend those who make mistakes and end up with fake coins. I am making those mistakes quite often. But when you see a coin that was never listed in any catalog offered on eBay for a few hundred dollars without any certification of authenticity - what could you be thinking? And the Chinese fakes are even worse, they look pretty good, but it should make you wander, when 5 sellers with reputation between 0 and 3, offer identical looking coins at the same time. Good business practice is paramount but we should not forget "Caveat Emptor"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Of course not, 2 wrongs do not make a right. I'm just much more dismayed by sellers who will peddle manufactured fakes in large quantities, than these guys who seem to have stumbled over some old fantasy coin. alexbq2, I apologize if my original post sounded harsh ... I actually got confused as to whom I was answering! I get very frustrated, and even angry, when I hear people who do sell stuff like this try to justify themselves in retrospect. Of course, we are all naive at some point in our numismatic careers. We all make mistakes ... hopefully only once, though. Anyone can pick up a fake coin cheaply and think they have made a great deal, even trying to sell it for what might be an adequate price for the genuine item, not knowing any better. But the honest collector or dealer will soon realize the mistake and not try to find 1,000 explanations afterwards for why it must be "all right" to peddle wares such as this 1908 piece. As far as the "gullible" remark, I do not mean to offend those who make mistakes and end up with fake coins. I am making those mistakes quite often. But when you see a coin that was never listed in any catalog offered on eBay for a few hundred dollars without any certification of authenticity - what could you be thinking? Exactly ... this is my point. If I think someone must be pretty stupid to buy an item such as this, then what conclusion should I reach concerning the seller's intelligence and/or motivation? Good business practice is paramount but we should not forget "Caveat Emptor"! Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuroseas Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 that story about not knowing anything about it is complete crap... you are either a liar or just a moron... why would you sell something on e bay and know absolutely nothing about it especially if its "made of gold"? I think you just got stuffed on it... and now your trying to stuff someone else with it... I will wait to be convinced otherwise. Please allow me to retort. I came onto this blog to honestly explain the circumstances of the situation and maybe bring clarity regarding this coin. I opened my Epistle on this site stating clearly that I am not a coin guy. I then read your comment suggesting that I am a Moran or a liar. I am neither and I cannot believe your audacity to personally attack someone without even knowing them. Like I explained, I put this on auction with the purest of intentions. I did research it somewhat. I didn't find any from 1908 and typically a bell would go off, but this time it didn't. While I had this coin up for auction, and as information presented itself, I immediately added this info to the auction. I sold this giving exactly every piece of information presented me from people much like yourself. In the end, someone bought it even knowing the possibility of being a fake. I sold it honestly, I am honest and I find it offensive that you suggest otherwise. Oh and please, my intelligence was also questioned by Alexbq2. Hopefully he/she will read this as well. In a nutshell, forums like this are amazing. It helps regular Joe's like me find information and resources that typically are not always easy to find. But if any advice I could pass along to you would be this; don’t put yourself on a pedestal. Don't assume that because someone lacks the knowledge you have regarding coins, that their acumen is any less (or anymore) that yours. Be respectful. Thanks again for listening. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Oh and please, my intelligence was also questioned by Alexbq2. Hopefully he/she will read this as well. Since I was mentioned by name I will reply First, I did not question your intelligence, I questioned the intelligence of a coin collector who would buy your coin as anything but a piece of novelty. Second, if you indeed sold the coin with attached doubts of its authenticity as per my earlier comment "the description of the item should reflect its actual status. And refund should be offered in case of a misunderstanding", I see no issue with your sale. Third, this is a public forum there are no "high pedestals" here, just opinions you can agree or disagree with. (But that's just my opinion ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 I thought it might be worthwhile to copy this link into the current thread: 1906 fake 10 rouble gold Doesn't the obverse look like the same die created it as for the 1908 fake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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