FAKE 10 rub 1908 on EBay

[lucianoalan]

The style alone condemns it. The portrait is very badly done and this observation has

nothing to do with the quality of the photographs. I have the St. Petersburg Mint reports

for this period and no 10 rouble coins are listed for 1908.

 

It is of course possible that the Imperial Mint made 10 rouble patterns in 1908 (which would

not have been in the mint report) but this piece is so poorly executed that it cannot have been

a pattern.

 

It is also worth noting that modern counterfeiters often make mistakes when preparing their

dies.

 

RWJ

 

Thanks Julian. I am sure that quality of the photo has a lot to do with this and i will supply the best photos probably tomorrow.

Please let me know something related to this weight of 8,6 g.

If after the new high res photos I get the same answer from you, I will agree that the coin is fake and that will be the end of story. I will tell my friend that it should be removed from the ebay and re listed as fake. We have put a very high reserve so probably no one will buy it...

[mityaj]

http://www.imperialrussia.com/goldcoins/19...0goldruble.html

 

This is the good link to the coin... How about this one? Is it also fake?

What I am saying is that the pictures a not of the finest quality and I will definitely get better pictures. So far, i haven't found a single evidence that this year did exist except for the actual coin! But why would somebody bother creating 2 copies of 1908 rouble? Non existing year? Why not making 1906? It exists and it is rare enough to make good money!

I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...

Is there an old (1910's) catalog of Russian coins? Is there a list of mints by the St Petersburg Mint?

 

We have set a very high reserve price and probably no one will meet it. After the auction is done, I will look for some coin experts to verify if the coin is genuine or not.

 

How many 1908 10 Rouble gold coins you know of?

Even fake, it would still be rare What would be the value of a fake one?

 

I don't think FAKE is the right term here: FAKE implies that there is a genuine example in existence. I'd call it a FANTASY coin.

[Oldman]

I believe we have exhausted all resources here. There is nothing else to add.

[bobh]

I believe we have exhausted all resources here. There is nothing else to add.

Agreed.

[Cheburgen]

http://www.imperialrussia.com/goldcoins/19...0goldruble.html

 

This is the good link to the coin... How about this one? Is it also fake?

What I am saying is that the pictures a not of the finest quality and I will definitely get better pictures. So far, i haven't found a single evidence that this year did exist except for the actual coin! But why would somebody bother creating 2 copies of 1908 rouble? Non existing year? Why not making 1906? It exists and it is rare enough to make good money!

I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...

Is there an old (1910's) catalog of Russian coins? Is there a list of mints by the St Petersburg Mint?

 

We have set a very high reserve price and probably no one will meet it. After the auction is done, I will look for some coin experts to verify if the coin is genuine or not.

 

How many 1908 10 Rouble gold coins you know of?

Even fake, it would still be rare What would be the value of a fake one?

 

 

<Who is the manufacturer?

 

Well, at least, I can say, it is not, definetely, SPB mint.

 

<I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...

 

I am sorry too, but you have to have a very good references to give a very good reason about the existence of such coin. Let's say, you are coming into major aucton and you are claiming that you are selling the original of United States Declaration of Independence. Do you have any proof that this is original?

[bobh]

I think this is the thread.

Thanks, grivna1726! I guess I was too lazy to look it up ...

[lucianoalan]

Here are the images I promised a while back. My friend was away fro the holidays and got back this morning.

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_11.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_10.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_09.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_08.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_07.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_06.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_05.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_04.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_03.jpg

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_02.jpg

 

 

I hope I get some conclusive opinions based on these pictures even though I know that you have made your point before the coin even appeared )

 

Please take a good look at all the images and, if you need some more, just let me know.

[bobh]

Here are the images I promised a while back. My friend was away fro the holidays and got back this morning.

[links snipped]

 

1. Look at the denticles -- your coin's denticles all have the wrong shape, both on obverse and reverse! Also, they are very irregular and mushy-looking. Compare with genuine coins.

 

2. Again, this is the wrong mintmaster -- only Elikum Babayants was MM in 1908.

 

3. The obverse lettering is too large and too close to the denticles.

 

4. The part in Nikolai's hair is too straight; genuine coins show more curve there.

 

5. Nikolai's forehead is too protruding -- looks almost like a Neanderthaler!

 

6. The inside of the "0" in "10 rublei" is too narrow, and the small parts of the letters in the denomination are too thick.

 

7. Pictures such as you have shown with the weight can easily be faked ... there is a suspicious darker area in the background around the display which looks like it might have been photoshopped.

 

I'd like to point out that there are fakes which are much more convincing -- the 1899-AR ten rouble coin discussed previously here is very realistic compared to the way your coin looks. Your coin is definitely, and quite obviously, a fake.

[RW Julian]

Here are the images I promised a while back. My friend was away fro the holidays and got back this morning.

 

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg225/p...bles1908_11.jpg

 

[snipped]

 

hope I get some conclusive opinions based on these pictures even though I know that you have made your point before the coin even appeared )

 

Please take a good look at all the images and, if you need some more, just let me know.

I have looked at the photos and find the following:

 

1. The head of Nicholas II is badly executed, the beard in particular.

 

2. The reverse is not the standard reverse as there are several differences. Even if we assume that

the obverse is an unadopted trial by a Mint engraver, the reverse used would have been from the

standard hub used in 1904 and 1909. There was no point in making up a new reverse hub when one

was already in use.

 

3. The wrong mintmaster initials on the edge; they should be EB. The edge lettering also seems cruder

than genuine specimens.

 

In my opinion, therefore, the piece is not a genuine product of the St. Petersburg Mint during the time of

Nicholas II.

 

Some years ago there was a fraud in Canada in which false dies were made and 10 rouble pieces struck

as collateral for a bank loan. It is my understanding that the first batch of pieces were of good gold but most

were just plated. (I cannot give a reference for this story but it was told to me by a reliable dealer.) I wonder

if this1908 piece might not have been part of a similar scheme in Europe during, say, the 1920s or 1930s when

the incorrect date of 1908 would have meant nothing.

 

RWJ

[lucianoalan]

I have looked at the photos and find the following:

 

1. The head of Nicholas II is badly executed, the beard in particular.

 

2. The reverse is not the standard reverse as there are several differences. Even if we assume that

the obverse is an unadopted trial by a Mint engraver, the reverse used would have been from the

standard hub used in 1904 and 1909. There was no point in making up a new reverse hub when one

was already in use.

 

3. The wrong mintmaster initials on the edge; they should be EB. The edge lettering also seems cruder

than genuine specimens.

 

In my opinion, therefore, the piece is not a genuine product of the St. Petersburg Mint during the time of

Nicholas II.

 

Some years ago there was a fraud in Canada in which false dies were made and 10 rouble pieces struck

as collateral for a bank loan. It is my understanding that the first batch of pieces were of good gold but most

were just plated. (I cannot give a reference for this story but it was told to me by a reliable dealer.) I wonder

if this1908 piece might not have been part of a similar scheme in Europe during, say, the 1920s or 1930s when

the incorrect date of 1908 would have meant nothing.

 

RWJ

 

 

Now I have to admit that this is a fake. Contrary to Bobh opinion, the photoshop has not been used on ANY occasion while I was preparing this. Even though, I am a photoshop expert and faking weight, color and even lettering would be a piece of cake, I STRONGLY believe in true antiques and only genuine pieces are of value to me even when selling. That is why I am making such a big fuss of everything. I definitely wouldn't be here discussing this with the experts!

 

The story about this coin us that my friend bought it with an Italian lot years ago. We are from the Zadar area which was part of Italy for a while. The story you are telling of the 20's and 30's seems pretty good! The only thing that bothers me is the wight which is correct .

 

We will not remove the coin from eBay just to see how much the people are wiling to pay. Just to inform you, the reserve is too high for them to reach and there are 50 people watching this auction daily. Like someone on this forum mentioned, it is sad to see people interested in this coin and bidding without any sort of research! The coin will remain with my friend as a curiosity.

 

Anyway, thank you all and I hope I wasn't too much of a pain raising all those questions! )

[RW Julian]

The story about this coin us that my friend bought it with an Italian lot years ago. We are from the Zadar area which was part of Italy for a while. The story you are telling of the 20's and 30's seems pretty good! The only thing that bothers me is the wight which is correct .

Your comment is interesting and some further thoughts occur to me:

 

1) If this had been made as a fraudulent scheme of some kind, say as collateral for a bank loan,

then a correct weight would have been important. Under such circumstances the bank would

have tested the first lot for purity and value. Later, perhaps, spot checks for weight would have been

sufficient.

 

2) There is another possibility. In the 1950s and 1950s counterfeiters in Beirut were turning out

large numbers of false pieces with the correct amount of gold. The profit came from the premium

on gold coins. In some cases the Beirut forgers used deliberately wrong dates so that they could

not be accused of counterfeiting. Perhaps this 1908 piece is a product of a such a workshop and

was not sold widely because the Lebanese Civil War disrupted the counterfeiters before very many

were produced or sold.

 

RWJ

[lucianoalan]

Your comment is interesting and some further thoughts occur to me:

 

1) If this had been made as a fraudulent scheme of some kind, say as collateral for a bank loan,

then a correct weight would have been important. Under such circumstances the bank would

have tested the first lot for purity and value. Later, perhaps, spot checks for weight would have been

sufficient.

 

2) There is another possibility. In the 1950s and 1950s counterfeiters in Beirut were turning out

large numbers of false pieces with the correct amount of gold. The profit came from the premium

on gold coins. In some cases the Beirut forgers used deliberately wrong dates so that they could

not be accused of counterfeiting. Perhaps this 1908 piece is a product of a such a workshop and

was not sold widely because the Lebanese Civil War disrupted the counterfeiters before very many

of were produced or sold.

 

RWJ

 

I would have to say that this Lebanese story sounds pretty convincing! That would explain weight, coins and the year! It really puzzled me why would someone counterfeit only few pieces of 1908 - non existing year! If you are making a lot of coins, then there must be a good purpose (like for these Lebanese) and putting 1908 does make sense. Still, they made few serious mistakes (like the name of the Mintmaster) which proves that the guy who was supervising the operations was not an expert. Anyway, this would probably tie it to Italy even better than the Canadian story since Lebanon is closer and still is one of the richest countries in the Mediterranean. Good oportunity to sell some fake coins!

Good stories here!

[LostDutchman]

so what if someone happens to hit your reserve???? I find it kind of shady for you to leave it up on e bay "just to see what people are willing to pay"...I think that may show some true colors here folks

[bobh]

so what if someone happens to hit your reserve???? I find it kind of shady for you to leave it up on e bay "just to see what people are willing to pay"...I think that may show some true colors here folks

I agree 100%. For those so inclined, this can be reported as a violation of eBay listing policy through this link:

 

Report eBay violation here

 

The above link points to another link on this forum which contains the link to the eBay site.

[STEVE MOULDING]

I agree 100%. For those so inclined, this can be reported as a violation of eBay listing policy through this link:

Done.

 

If the seller now acknowledges it to be fake the listing must be revised/withdrawn.

 

Steve

[grivna1726]

If the seller now acknowledges it to be fake the listing must be revised/withdrawn.

 

As of December 27/07 at 5:45 pm Pacific time, the unrevised auction is still up and running.

 

Bidding is currently at $255 (reserve not met) with 2 days and 18 hours to bid remaining on this acknowledged fake.

[bobh]

I also just now reported it to eBay. If enough people report this, maybe they will end the auction and/or NARU the seller.

[LostDutchman]

still up and running this morning...

[grivna1726]

still up and running this morning...

 

Reported in the faint hope that it might help.

[LostDutchman]

i reported it as well yesterday

[akdrv]

Reported it to eBay. Let's see how many reports it takes to remove this auction.

[jroc]

Also reported the item....

[jroc]

This piece is actually showing up at the bottom of this web site??

[grivna1726]

This piece is actually showing up at the bottom of this web site??

 

Yes, that's the one. I might be mistaken, but I believe the ads are chosen by ebay, not this website.

[Cheburgen]

lucianoalan: I am the seller of the coin

lucianoalan: Now I have to admit that this is a fake.

lucianoalan: We will not remove the coin from eBay just to see how much the people are wiling to pay.

 

 

So, in case the "coin" is sold, with reserve met, what you gonna do? Sell it? Or you will tell to the buyer that you were trying to sell a fake?