FAKE 10 rub 1908 on EBay

[Oldman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-RUSSIAN-10-RUBL...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Edit: link fixed

[RW Julian]

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-RUSSIAN-10-RUBL...1QQcmdZViewItem

The above link does not work but this one should:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=110208253085

 

RWJ

[Oldman]

The above link does not work but this one should:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=110208253085

 

RWJ

 

Thank you.

[lucianoalan]

I am the seller of the coin and I was guaranteed it was genuine. Now I see some people calling it fake and I would like to know more before I close my eBay offer. Any more examples of fake 1908 10 rouble? Who is the manufacturer?

Please help! I really wouldn't like to sell fake!

[grivna1726]

I am the seller of the coin and I was guaranteed it was genuine. Now I see some people calling it fake and I would like to know more before I close my eBay offer. Any more examples of fake 1908 10 rouble? Who is the manufacturer?

Please help! I really wouldn't like to sell fake!

 

None of my references list a 10 roubles (or a 5 roubles) struck with 1908 date. If none were struck, then how could your example be genuine?

 

Perhaps you should ask whoever "guaranteed it was genuine" how they know this when the experts don't know of a such a coin?

 

If I claim that I am 300 years old with 2 heads and six eyes and you don't believe me, a reasonable person would ask me to provide proof that what I say is true, not demand that you prove that what I say is false.

 

You claim to have a genuine example of a coin unknown to people who have devoted significant portions of their lives to studying Russian coins and have no knowledge of such a coin ever being struck. Rather than asking those who question its authenticity to prove it is fake, you should provide proof that it is real.

 

Claiming that you were "guaranteed it was genuine" by some unknown person and that it comes from some unspecified "well known Croatian collection" does not meet that standard.

[lucianoalan]

None of my references list a 10 roubles (or a 5 roubles) struck with 1908 date. If none were struck, then how could your example be genuine?

 

Perhaps you should ask whoever "guaranteed it was genuine" how they know this when the experts don't know of a such a coin?

 

If I claim that I am 300 years old with 2 heads and six eyes and you don't believe me, a reasonable person would ask me to provide proof that what I say is true, not demand that you prove that what I say is false.

 

You claim to have a genuine example of a coin unknown to people who have devoted significant portions of their lives to studying Russian coins and have no knowledge of such a coin ever being struck. Rather than asking those who question its authenticity to prove it is fake, you should provide proof that it is real.

 

Claiming that you were "guaranteed it was genuine" by some unknown person and that it comes from some unspecified "well known Croatian collection" does not meet that standard.

 

I agree with everything you said but give me a way to prove that this is true. How does someone prove that the coin is true if it is not listed in the books and the experts don't know about it?

How many fake 1908 you know of? Who is the manufacturer? Even though I can believe the experts - 1906 has only 10 known pieces! If the tradition was to mint no less than 1000 pieces, than I would say that the only one 1908. 10 rouble would be fake.

How can I prove that the coin is genuine? Only by the word of experts? How many times the experts were wrong? Do you need better pictures?

 

I understand that recently many fakes are coming from China since the value of roubles doubled, but still the coin came to my friend's possession a while back. Before the chinese fakes...

[RW Julian]

I am the seller of the coin and I was guaranteed it was genuine. Now I see some people calling it fake and I would like to know more before I close my eBay offer. Any more examples of fake 1908 10 rouble? Who is the manufacturer?

Please help! I really wouldn't like to sell fake!

It is a definite fake. The head of Nicholas II, for example, is badly done and not

even close to the genuine dies. This is the first such coin I have seen, however,

and have no idea who made it except that it was not done at the St. Petersburg

Mint during the reign of Nicholas II.

 

RWJ

[grivna1726]

It is a definite fake. The head of Nicholas II, for example, is badly done and not

even close to the genuine dies. This is the first such coin I have seen, however,

and have no idea who made it except that it was not done at the St. Petersburg

Mint during the reign of Nicholas II.

 

RWJ

 

Precisely.

[grivna1726]

I agree with everything you said but give me a way to prove that this is true. How does someone prove that the coin is true if it is not listed in the books and the experts don't know about it?

How many fake 1908 you know of? Who is the manufacturer? Even though I can believe the experts - 1906 has only 10 known pieces! If the tradition was to mint no less than 1000 pieces, than I would say that the only one 1908. 10 rouble would be fake.

How can I prove that the coin is genuine? Only by the word of experts? How many times the experts were wrong? Do you need better pictures?

 

I understand that recently many fakes are coming from China since the value of roubles doubled, but still the coin came to my friend's possession a while back. Before the chinese fakes...

 

Your auction description says there is one other known example of this coin:

 

"Here is the link to only other known piece:http://www.imperialrussia.com/bookscatalog...alsbook18c.html"

 

The referenced url is to a book which describes award medals from the latter half of the 18th century. Why a book about 18th century medals would be describing a 20th century coin is beyond my understanding.

[lucianoalan]

http://www.imperialrussia.com/goldcoins/19...0goldruble.html

 

This is the good link to the coin... How about this one? Is it also fake?

 

 

What I am saying is that the pictures a not of the finest quality and I will definitely get better pictures. So far, i haven't found a single evidence that this year did exist except for the actual coin! But why would somebody bother creating 2 copies of 1908 rouble? Non existing year? Why not making 1906? It exists and it is rare enough to make good money!

I am sorry but all your "evidences" are not giving good reasons to drop this...

Is there an old (1910's) catalog of Russian coins? Is there a list of mints by the St Petersburg Mint?

 

We have set a very high reserve price and probably no one will meet it. After the auction is done, I will look for some coin experts to verify if the coin is genuine or not.

 

How many 1908 10 Rouble gold coins you know of?

Even fake, it would still be rare What would be the value of a fake one?

[STEVE MOULDING]

:

After the auction is done, I will look for some coin experts to verify if the coin is genuine or not.

:

Hi lucianoalan. Gold is not my area, but I will say you have already been talking here to some of the world experts in Russian numismatics. Anyway, please let the board know what other opinions you receive.

 

With kind regards

 

Steve Moulding

[Doomer]

It is fake because:

1. Hair on the head and beard of Nicholas II made roughly

2. Feathers on the eagle heads also made roughly

3. Proportions of details on the coin are not the same in comparison with genuine coin

 

Please comapre with genuine one

http://www.numizmat.net/upload/iblock/4f7/10vwl%201899.jpg

 

You need to remove your listing from e-bay or change description of that fake coin

[lucianoalan]

It is fake because:

1. Hair on the head and beard of Nicholas II made roughly

2. Feathers on the eagle heads also made roughly

3. Proportions of details on the coin are not the same in comparison with genuine coin

 

Please comapre with genuine one

http://www.numizmat.net/upload/iblock/4f7/10vwl%201899.jpg

 

You need to remove your listing from e-bay or change description of that fake coin

 

 

Let me get GOOD pictures first so you guys can compare. I did some photoshop superimposed comparison and the size, proportions and position are almost perfect. I will wait for the better pictures and then make the final comparison.

 

I understand that I am dealing with top experts on Russian coins but so far I haven't seen the proof that this is fake and no one is answering my questions.

 

I will most definitely remove the eBay listing as soon as I get the proof that this is fake.

Is anyone interested in examining this in person?

This is rare. Extra rare even if fake!

[gxseries]

How exactly can you expect it to be a genuine coin when there are no records of such from St. Petersburg? Uzdenikov's catalogue shows no record of such coin struck. RW Julian is a well known author for Russian coins as he has written a few books and journals (I'm very ashamed of not owning any copies) as well as the editor of the Russian Numismatic Society - you should be able to google it up.

 

The problem of counterfeit these days is that the technology is growing very rapidly that it's getting very difficult to detect counterfeits with your own mere eyes. Gone are casting as these are deemed outdated and in comes something called electro-spark if I get the name right. Software modelling only makes it easier for counterfeiters to make excellent counterfeit / fantasy coins and mass of the coin isn't too difficult to counterfeit either if you know a bit of maths and element weights.

 

It might be worth it's gold weight if it is determined to be gold but otherwise if that is worth more than that, I might as well open a chain somewhere and start counterfeiting such high quality "coins" - it makes no sense why they should be worth so much more for a non-existant coin.

[bobh]

I am the seller of the coin and I was guaranteed it was genuine. Now I see some people calling it fake and I would like to know more before I close my eBay offer. Any more examples of fake 1908 10 rouble? Who is the manufacturer?

Please help! I really wouldn't like to sell fake!

This is ridiculous! The only gold coin minted by Russia in 1908 was the 2-1/2 imperial (a donative or souvenir coin) with nominative value of 25 roubles weighing 32.26 g of 0.900 gold (corresponding to 1 troy ounce of fine gold). The design is totally different from the regular business strike 10 rouble coins, and as others have pointed out, it is IMPOSSIBLE that this coin could be genuine!

 

But since you insist that this is an unlisted coin, I took the trouble to visit the web site at the link in the auction description.

 

First of all, it is quite unlikely that such a unique coin would have been sewn into the cover of an old Bible instead of residing in a museum.

 

Secondly, the image of the edge shown in the link shows very clearly the mintmaster initials "(А.Г)" (for Apollon Grasgov) which is also impossible, because by 1908 Elikum Babayants was mintmaster. The correct initials would have to be "(Э.Б)".

 

Thirdly, the hair in the portrait of the auction coin looks totally different than that of genuine coins. The image at the web site seems to show the obverse of a genuine coin because the heavy rim knock visible from the reverse side is missing.

 

What does this coin weigh? Or did you never take the trouble to weigh it yourself?

 

What surprises me is that there are already 9 bids on this coin -- don't people do any research anymore before spending their good money??

[bobh]

Your auction description says there is one other known example of this coin:

 

"Here is the link to only other known piece:http://www.imperialrussia.com/bookscatalog...alsbook18c.html"

 

The referenced url is to a book which describes award medals from the latter half of the 18th century. Why a book about 18th century medals would be describing a 20th century coin is beyond my understanding.

If you hold the mouse pointer over the item in the left-hand side column "Gold Coins", a second menu will pop up with the caption: "1908 Unique gold 10 rouble".

[grivna1726]

Secondly, the image of the edge shown in the link shows very clearly the mintmaster initials "(А.Г)" (for Apollon Grasgov) which is also impossible, because by 1908 Elikum Babayants was mintmaster. The correct initials would have to be "(Э.Б)".

 

 

This fact alone is conclusive and irrefutable proof that the coin is false.

[grivna1726]

If you hold the mouse pointer over the item in the left-hand side column "Gold Coins", a second menu will pop up with the caption: "1908 Unique gold 10 rouble".

 

Thank you. I had made the assumption that when a link was provided, that it was a direct link. The absence of any suggestion that further menu navigation was needed did not suggest that my assumption was incorrect.

[lucianoalan]

This is ridiculous! The only gold coin minted by Russia in 1908 was the 2-1/2 imperial (a donative or souvenir coin) with nominative value of 25 roubles weighing 32.26 g of 0.900 gold (corresponding to 1 troy ounce of fine gold). The design is totally different from the regular business strike 10 rouble coins, and as others have pointed out, it is IMPOSSIBLE that this coin could be genuine!

 

But since you insist that this is an unlisted coin, I took the trouble to visit the web site at the link in the auction description.

 

First of all, it is quite unlikely that such a unique coin would have been sewn into the cover of an old Bible instead of residing in a museum.

 

Secondly, the image of the edge shown in the link shows very clearly the mintmaster initials "(А.Г)" (for Apollon Grasgov) which is also impossible, because by 1908 Elikum Babayants was mintmaster. The correct initials would have to be "(Э.Б)".

 

Now that is some HARD evidence! Thanks for this. But this I can argue another way: did someone become a mintmaster from January 1st and that is impossible that that year someone else can be a mintmaster as well? For example, this coin is crafted on (let's say) March 12th while Grasgov was a mintmaster and Babayants became that in (let's say) May? Give me the years of their deaths. What were the regular dates (if any) when these coins were usualy minted?

 

 

Thirdly, the hair in the portrait of the auction coin looks totally different than that of genuine coins. The image at the web site seems to show the obverse of a genuine coin because the heavy rim knock visible from the reverse side is missing.

 

I do have to take a better set of photographs!

 

What does this coin weigh? Or did you never take the trouble to weigh it yourself?

Did you take the time to read the auction listing before being rude? 8,6g

 

What surprises me is that there are already 9 bids on this coin -- don't people do any research anymore before spending their good money??

 

What I am surprised is to find out so many experts jumping on this poor coin with very few evidences that it is fake! Only you, so far, gave some hard evidence. Everything else was just thier word against mine and I HAVE THE COIN and they never even saw one!?!?! I raised so many questions in this post and NO ANSWERS whatsoever!?!?!? Who was the counter fitter? How many fake 10 rouble 1908 you have encountered? WHY would someone bother with fake year when 1906 is FANTASTIC opportunity for forging? What if there are 10 pieces of 1908 lost in the war of 1917? You did have a terrible wars and revolutions going on for decades...

Even thouh, this post is quite convincing with proving that this is fake, please people, give me the answers!

[RW Julian]

What I am surprised is to find out so many experts jumping on this poor coin with very few evidences that it is fake! Only you, so far, gave some hard evidence. Everything else was just thier word against mine and I HAVE THE COIN and they never even saw one!?!?! I raised so many questions in this post and NO ANSWERS whatsoever!?!?!? Who was the counter fitter? How many fake 10 rouble 1908 you have encountered? WHY would someone bother with fake year when 1906 is FANTASTIC opportunity for forging? What if there are 10 pieces of 1908 lost in the war of 1917? You did have a terrible wars and revolutions going on for decades...

Even thouh, this post is quite convincing with proving that this is fake, please people, give me the answers!

The style alone condemns it. The portrait is very badly done and this observation has

nothing to do with the quality of the photographs. I have the St. Petersburg Mint reports

for this period and no 10 rouble coins are listed for 1908.

 

It is of course possible that the Imperial Mint made 10 rouble patterns in 1908 (which would

not have been in the mint report) but this piece is so poorly executed that it cannot have been

a pattern.

 

It is also worth noting that modern counterfeiters often make mistakes when preparing their

dies.

 

RWJ

[bobh]

What does this coin weigh? Or did you never take the trouble to weigh it yourself?

Did you take the time to read the auction listing before being rude? 8,6g

Too many sellers post the weight of a genuine coin, which can easily be looked up in a catalogue, but never weigh it themselves ... the weight is probably off by a significant amount; such fake coins are usually somewhat too light. You might want to look up an older thread here which concerns a fake 1899 ten rouble coin. It weighs almost the correct amount, but is a little off (8,4g). Again, the wrong mintmaster initials give it away. (Anyone have a link handy to this thread??)

 

Another detail, which YOU have provided, gives away this coin as a fake. Here is a link to some genuine coins:

 

http://hairgrove-goldberg.com/Gallery/Russia_10_Roubles

 

Now compare the close-up image of the lettering on the left side of the obverse which you have posted with that of some genuine coins. You will see that the letters are much too close to the denticles on your coin, especially the top of the "Й" in "НИКОЛАЙ".

[WCO]

Lucianoalan,

 

As I see you reside in Republic of Croatia. When you see a coin denominated 7 Kuna 37 Lipa will you need any evidence that it is not genuine? Or you will think it's a unique and rare coin that no one ever seen?

 

The same is with 1908 10 Ruble coin. It's the same odd since there were no such coins in existence on the first place. No one need to hold it in his hands to know it's a fake, no one need any evidence at all since it's obvious.

 

You still can sell it on e-bay but need to change description and specify that it is not a genuine coin but a fantasy piece. If it is made of gold then it worth at least its gold content and then there may be people who may want to buy an odd thing and ready to pay more. In this case you will be saying the truth and can sell the coin.

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

Again, the wrong mintmaster initials give it away. (Anyone have a link handy to this thread??)

 

I think this is the thread.

[gxseries]

Just in case the seller is still not satisified with the proof given here, here is one scan from Uzdenikov - very commonly used in many references.

 

 

As seen, there are no coins struck in 1908.

[grivna1726]

As seen, there are no coins struck in 1908.

 

 

Unless I misunderstand the seller, his position is that the coin exists and is genuine. The fact that the coin is unlisted in all catalogs, unknown to the greatest numismatists of the 20th century and unrecorded by the Mint, merely demonstrates the deficiencies of the catalogs, the knowledge of recognized experts and the record-keeping of the Russian mint.