Your opinion is sought for ...

[Oldman]

Hello everybody!

Here is a pair of simple 1818 roubles. Nothing special, actually: average grade, average eye appeal.

What did get my attention is the location , for instance, of letters "n" and "c" under the eagle. Any interesting ideas ?

[gxseries]

Funny how you bring this thread up Oldman - I do have a 1818 ruble but the last time I weighted it, it's severely underweighted, so it's too likely to be a counterfeit. 18.8grams opposed to 20.3grams.

 

[bobh]

Hello everybody!

Here is a pair of simple 1818 roubles. Nothing special, actually: average grade, average eye appeal.

What did get my attention is the location , for instance, of letters "n" and "c" under the eagle. Any interesting ideas ?

There are three eagle varieties for this year; your coins both appear to have the same eagle design. Also, the shape and size of the mintmaster initials appear the same; only the position is different. I don't know exactly how the dies were prepared in this time period, but if the letters "ПС" were punched into each die by hand, this would explain the existence of positional varieties.

 

Also, the second digit "1" in the coin on the left seems more slanted than the other one. If you have the catalog of Jim Elmen's Worldwide XVII auction (17 May 1990), lot 719 shows an 1818-ПС rouble similar to yours (same eagle, 2nd "1" in the date is slanted to the left) with the "c" of "ПС" sitting exactly between the 1 and the 8. I didn't see any mention of this kind of variety in any of the references, though. I looked at Uzdenikov, Bitkin, Julian and Severin as well as some auction catalogs from past events -- New York Sales (2006 and 2007), Elmen Worldwide (XVII, XL), and the Goodman sale.

 

Cheers!

[Oldman]

Thanks for your replies.

Looking at these coins closely , I came to conclusion that the dies are different for both sides. For example, the star above the crown has its ray pointing exactly at the eagle crown's cross on 1 coin and sligthly to the left on another. There are other small diffreneces on each side.

 

Regards,

[RW Julian]

Thanks for your replies.

Looking at these coins closely , I came to conclusion that the dies are different for both sides. For example, the star above the crown has its ray pointing exactly at the eagle crown's cross on 1 coin and sligthly to the left on another. There are other small diffreneces on each side.

Regards,

I see no problem with either coin. There were no master hubs in those days (i.e. for the entire

obverse except for date) and minor variations are normal. The year 1818 is very common for

a rouble and there were a great many die pairs for this coinage.

 

RWJ

[gxseries]

Imagine a VAM version of such coins - must be pretty HUGE if that ever comes to light.

[Oldman]

Imagine a VAM version of such coins - must be pretty HUGE if that ever comes to light.

 

 

No ! We do not want it ! We do not want to open another can of worms

If you had a chance to get familiar with relatively new book of Mr Yaroslav Adrianov on Russian silver coins of 1832-1858 , you will uderstand what I mean.

 

best regards,

[WCO]

No ! We do not want it ! We do not want to open another can of worms

If you had a chance to get familiar with relatively new book of Mr Yaroslav Adrianov on Russian silver coins of 1832-1858 , you will uderstand what I mean.

 

best regards,

 

Have no idea what you mean. Pls. explain.

 

WCO

[Oldman]

Have no idea what you mean. Pls. explain.

 

WCO

In his new book Mr Adrianov , in my opinion, went way too far categorizing varieties of Russia silver coins 1832-1856. If you had a chance to read this book , you would know what I mean. That is why "VAM Morgan dollar" system would just kill young Russian numismatics

 

Regards,

[gxseries]

I would somewhat agree - VAM was originally there to hype up Morgan dollar coins as they are too far common compared to Russian coins of that era. By the way Oldman, by any chances do you know where I can pick up that copy of Adrianov book that you are talking about? I gave a check on google but it seems like I'm not looking at the right spot:

[bobh]

I would somewhat agree - VAM was originally there to hype up Morgan dollar coins as they are too far common compared to Russian coins of that era.

Well, I disagree with you here -- at the time that Van Allen and Mallis decided to collaborate their efforts, each had already been categorizing Morgan and Peace dollars independently of each other for several decades. For example, Mr. Van Allen had already examined more than 35,000 coins by 1964 which is when the U.S. Treasury department decided to stop offering them for sale (at $1 each) (according to the preface of the VAM book: "Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars", Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis, ISBN 0-9660168-2-3).

 

Up to that time, anyone could walk into the nearest bank and ask to buy silver dollars at face value, or drive their car to the Treasury building in Washington DC and get a canvas bag of 1,000 for $1,000 dollars. Of course, after going through them all, you could keep what you wanted and bring back the rest (or take photographs and then return all of them). Although none were minted after 1935, before 1964 you could still pay for your groceries with silver dollars if you wanted to.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with "hype" or trying to make silver dollars less common in the eyes of collectors. IMHO, their efforts stem from a genuine numismatic curiosity and interest which has nothing to do with what you imply.

 

OTOH, there are unscrupulous dealers who will try to hype some common VAM varieties in the hope that they can sell such a coin at a premium. Also, Oldman is right when he compares it to a "can of worms": so many new "VAM" varieties are being discovered every day that it makes you wonder where it will stop? Even so, varieties collectors will probably never be satisfied with a "closed book" -- and this is a good thing, because there should always be room for genuine numismatic research which adds to the body of knowledge.

[Oldman]

Well, I disagree with you here -- at the time that Van Allen and Mallis decided to collaborate their efforts, each had already been categorizing Morgan and Peace dollars independently of each other for several decades. For example, Mr. Van Allen had already examined more than 35,000 coins by 1964 which is when the U.S. Treasury department decided to stop offering them for sale (at $1 each) (according to the preface of the VAM book: "Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars", Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis, ISBN 0-9660168-2-3).

 

Up to that time, anyone could walk into the nearest bank and ask to buy silver dollars at face value, or drive their car to the Treasury building in Washington DC and get a canvas bag of 1,000 for $1,000 dollars. Of course, after going through them all, you could keep what you wanted and bring back the rest (or take photographs and then return all of them). Although none were minted after 1935, before 1964 you could still pay for your groceries with silver dollars if you wanted to.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with "hype" or trying to make silver dollars less common in the eyes of collectors. IMHO, their efforts stem from a genuine numismatic curiosity and interest which has nothing to do with what you imply.

 

OTOH, there are unscrupulous dealers who will try to hype some common VAM varieties in the hope that they can sell such a coin at a premium. Also, Oldman is right when he compares it to a "can of worms": so many new "VAM" varieties are being discovered every day that it makes you wonder where it will stop? Even so, varieties collectors will probably never be satisfied with a "closed book" -- and this is a good thing, because there should always be room for genuine numismatic research which adds to the body of knowledge.

 

Interesting point of view. Thanks for your comments. Even though, "VAM"-type categorization is very important for the numismatics as a scientific area, I find it very ....boring ...for collectors, especially for the young ones. Again, this is my personal opinion only.

 

As always yours,

[Oldman]

I would somewhat agree - VAM was originally there to hype up Morgan dollar coins as they are too far common compared to Russian coins of that era. By the way Oldman, by any chances do you know where I can pick up that copy of Adrianov book that you are talking about? I gave a check on google but it seems like I'm not looking at the right spot:

 

I was given a copy of this book by one of the Russian coin dealers last month. It is in Russian, though, so, I had to work hard to make some interpretation of the tables in the book.

It is an interesting reference but its quality is...,let say, not that high and the pictures are somewhat ... XXth century like (if you know what I mean).

 

Regards,

[gxseries]

Bobh - thanks for the correction. I really appericate it Should have done a more detailed reading about their works. It's just that everytime when I see reference to VAM - I associate it with value and that's not a good indication of what it's original intention was all about. Value is somewhat true as it might show the scarcity of a particular coin but it's pointless with no demand. (although one might feel great in having an unusual variety)

[WCO]

In his new book Mr Adrianov , in my opinion, went way too far categorizing varieties of Russia silver coins 1832-1856. If you had a chance to read this book , you would know what I mean. That is why "VAM Morgan dollar" system would just kill young Russian numismatics

 

Regards,

 

 

As far as I understand, the first attempt on "VAM varieties" of Russian Rubles was made about 100 years ago by K. Kochergin. His work was published in 1911 or 1912. He described from 15-20 to over 100+ varieties of Rubles for each year. It seems Kochergin's work was used by Mr. Adrianov to write his book. I would disagree that Adrianov's book "...would just kill young Russian numismatics". I do not see "young American numismatists" dying around because there are books on VAM varieties of Morgan dollars in existence.

 

Regards,

WCO

[Oldman]

As far as I understand, the first attempt on "VAM varieties" of Russian Rubles was made about 100 years ago by K. Kochergin. His work was published in 1911 or 1912. He described from 15-20 to over 100+ varieties of Rubles for each year. It seems Kochergin's work was used by Mr. Adrianov to write his book. I would disagree that Adrianov's book "...would just kill young Russian numismatics". I do not see "young American numismatists" dying around because there are books on VAM varieties of Morgan dollars in existence.

 

Regards,

WCO

 

Dear WCO,

I do not want to open another "can of worms" just for the sake of discussion ( I tried it before with you but you seemed a little ... stubborn - sorry, nothing personal - * ) - I have just expressed my opinion: with current lack of readily available literature and other resources (including Internet, free exchange, etc.) for wide audience it just does not seem to be very useful or practical to start loading young Russian NUMISMATICS (not NUMISMATISTS - you got this wrong, unfortunately) with this mute area of 100+ varieties per year ! Lets , first , bring education to the competative level and leave these VAMs to scientists and numismatists for now.

Have you had a chance to ACTUALLY read Mr Adrianov's book?

Regards,

[gxseries]

Oldman, I'm going to pull one step back and wonder about the implications of the study of such. This is one of the threads that I found to be very infomative, thanks to Julian: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=10090

 

Just grabbed a link that makes VAM research interesting and perhaps worthwhile http://www.coinworld.com/news/120803/bw_1208.asp I guess the only reason why VAM research occurs is because mints usually don't release such infomation as these are confidental. All we get is coins struck by them but we can study them.

 

I do agree that it's a mammoth task and to expose it all in a go perhaps isn't a wise idea but I believe there are still interesting stories to be told. For example I believe the 1810,11 era of 2 kopeks in my opinion is one of the more chaotic times in terms of varieties as well as various other mints, mintmasters striking the same coin. I still yet to have read more about such topics - just can't find the right sources.

 

On the other hand though, don't you think varieties can bring up unusual talks such as this thread you have opened as well as this sloppy 2 kopek that I have:

 

 

as opposed to:

 

By any chance does anyone else have a similar variety that looks like absurd looking 2 kopek that's slanting down to the left? I don't recall seeing any 2 kopeks with such sloppiness especially with St. Petersburg struck coins.

 

I got to admit though, I'm more likely to open that can of worms and get myself in a real mess.

[WCO]

Oldman,

 

I thought you are talking about "young Russian Numismatists"; the book is not for novice. But you were actually talking about "Russian Numismatics" at large. What a "dangerous" book for Russian numismatics.

 

Have you actually had a chance to read Kochergin's article?

 

You are right, there is nothing left to discuss, you provided your opinion and I provided mine.

 

Regards,

WCO

 

P.S. I'll make sure Yaroslav Adrianov reads this thread.

 

P.P.S. A friend of Mr. Adrianov sells his book (the one we are discassing here) in the U.S. If anyone is interested pls contact me via PM and I give you his direct e-mail. He said the price is 2000 Rubles (about $82 plus shipping).

[WCO]

This thread was translated to Mr. Adrianov (he does not speak English) by independent translator. Here is message of Mr. Adrianov to Oldman on Russian:

------------------------------------------

Г-н Oldman, очевидно, не в ладах с логикой, ибо посылка с выводом никак не связана. Каталоги составляются, главным образом, для коллекционеров, а уж те, в свою очередь, решат, насколько глубоко они захотят (или смогут) погрузиться в эту тему. Но для этого они должны знать, какие глубины существуют, и как отделить мух от котлет. Иначе им придётся самим изобретать велосипед. Это касается как моей книги, так и упомянутой "VAM Morgan dollar" - американским нумизматам тоже дОлжно знать обо всех тонкостях своей темы, а уж до какой глубины её собирать (и собирать ли вообще) - каждый примет решение сам. Проще говоря - для того, чтобы решить, ЧТО именно собирать, сначала надо узнать ЧТО ВООБЩЕ существует. А там - или достаточно одной монеты в типе, или всё же по подтипам... далее по годам, по систематическим вариантам, и, наконец, поштемпельные разновидности... В меру интереса и возможностей. Так что же и почему должно убить "молодую русскую нумизматику"? Не говоря уже о том, что "VAM Morgan dollar" Aмериканскую нумизматику не убила, так ещё нелишне г-ну Oldman знать,

что: "Что немцу смерть, то русскому - только для разгону..."

 

А русская нумизматика существует несколько дольше, чем Соединённые Штаты, как независимое государство - первый мюнцкабинет был создан ещё Петром Великим задолго до 1776 года.

------------------------------------------

 

For those who can't read Russian I am sorry, do not want to translate myself original text, it's here as is. May be someone else would be so kind to help a bit and translate it to English.

 

Regards,

WCO

[Loyal Citizen]

This thread was translated to Mr. Adrianov (he does not speak English) by independent translator. Here is message of Mr. Adrianov to Oldman on Russian:

------------------------------------------

Г-н Oldman, очевидно, не в ладах с логикой, ибо посылка с выводом никак не связана. Каталоги составляются, главным образом, для коллекционеров, а уж те, в свою очередь, решат, насколько глубоко они захотят (или смогут) погрузиться в эту тему. Но для этого они должны знать, какие глубины существуют, и как отделить мух от котлет. Иначе им придётся самим изобретать велосипед. Это касается как моей книги, так и упомянутой "VAM Morgan dollar" - американским нумизматам тоже дОлжно знать обо всех тонкостях своей темы, а уж до какой глубины её собирать (и собирать ли вообще) - каждый примет решение сам. Проще говоря - для того, чтобы решить, ЧТО именно собирать, сначала надо узнать ЧТО ВООБЩЕ существует. А там - или достаточно одной монеты в типе, или всё же по подтипам... далее по годам, по систематическим вариантам, и, наконец, поштемпельные разновидности... В меру интереса и возможностей. Так что же и почему должно убить "молодую русскую нумизматику"? Не говоря уже о том, что "VAM Morgan dollar" Aмериканскую нумизматику не убила, так ещё нелишне г-ну Oldman знать,

что: "Что немцу смерть, то русскому - только для разгону..."

 

А русская нумизматика существует несколько дольше, чем Соединённые Штаты, как независимое государство - первый мюнцкабинет был создан ещё Петром Великим задолго до 1776 года.

------------------------------------------

 

For those who can't read Russian I am sorry, do not want to translate myself original text, it's here as is. May be someone else would be so kind to help a bit and translate it to English.

 

Regards,

WCO

 

Polite and detailed "SHUT UP"

[Oldman]

Thanks LC!

 

I really tried hard not to answer or react but decided to just ask a question (straight forward answer is requested).

 

To WCO: when you were a kid , were hurt often by adults or classmates?

 

NOTES:Looks like each time you get into discussion with someone you can not just let it go - this is a known sign of a mental disorder (sorry, nothing personal - just a fact) related to childhood problems. I am serious about that as I saw lots of examples in my long life. I just want to make sure that you are stable since you seem to be an intelegent and educated person. Should you need any help please let me know - I'll do my best to assist.

 

Always,

[gxseries]

Oldman, you are not much better if you can't let a topic chill.

 

Thread locked up.