SMS Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 When one is charged with a crime, they will take possessions, at first those items that are related to the crime...and if found guilty...everything. That's not always the case. In certain situations, the government may confiscate other non-related items found in the same account or vicinity of the property related to the illegal activity. ref. 18 USC Section 984. If found innocent...it will be returned. Exactly! ref. 18 USC Section 983 However, there are times where the government simply ignores the fact that they must return the property. It is unfortunately almost always the responsibility of the accused to ensure their rights are honored, and must either file with the hearing judge in a post-hearing motion if there was actually a trial, or request a case work from their Congress-critter to bring to the Committees on the Judiciary to investigate. Many people don't understand that their elected representatives have authority to investigate any government agency that their constituent may have a complaint against. Or the fact that judges will very rarely make a proactive move on behalf of an accused person, and attorneys will normally ignore the situation for the opportunity to cash in on further "services" that should have been motioned prior to adjudication. Referring to Section 983 above, also note that it is the responsibility of any person who "purchased" these liberty dollars or paid for the Ron Paul items and never received them to file motions in Federal Court to get their paid for items from the feds, claiming "innocent owner" status. This is the second time someone has mentioned the confiscation of bullion and the outlawing of private ownership of such...this is in no way similar to that. Those people just had bullion sitting in safety deposit boxes...Norscam is accused of crimes...while I will not comment on whether it is a justified accusation...I have never liked them I believe we are in complete agreement with the above statement. I place Norfed/Liberty Dollar Corp. in the same class as SGS. Although I have absolutely no problem with the concept of barter and token/barter systems, the outrageous "pricing" scheme of the Liberty Dollar Corp. could be called nothing more than a pump and dump scheme. Their model was not based upon a silver or gold standard, as such a standard would value their "dollar" based upon the global rise and fall of silver and gold realizations. On another note, however, I am very upset with the way the government has handled this in the fact that for years now, high level executive officials have been claiming that the Liberty Dollar scheme was not violating federal law, then to suddenly conduct non-judicial activity such as this is very alarming. If purchasers of these curiosities find a problem with our government's actions as well, then they truly need to exert their rights and file proper claims in Federal Court to bring their objections to light prior to any hearing on the matter. Sitting there and crying that Liberty Dollar Corp. owes you because you paid for an item that was never received is simple complacency. The law is very specific regarding items confiscated by the government, and your rights as an owner if those items belong to you. Since the beginning, individual Americans have had to literally fight for their rights, and nobody else should be required to do your fighting for you if you have no intention of fighting for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Read the FBI Affidavit and it all makes quite a bit more sense why this apparently transpired: Affidavit for Liberty Dollar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coins4me Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 mmm.. futurama.but I do think its kind of fishy too. Is this for real? C'mooooon. This is a little too Hollywood sounding. I don't understand what is illegal about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28Plain Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 When one is charged with a crime, they will take possessions, at first those items that are related to the crime...and if found guilty...everything. If found innocent...it will be returned. If you sell drugs, they take all that might have been involved or bought with money from that endeavor...this is no different... Not exactly true. The feds and even local LE simply take whatever they like these days , often without charging anyone with any crime, and it's up to the owner to try to recover their property by legal means. Asset forfeiture laws are plainly unconstututional as per the 5th amendment which states: "No person shall.......be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law..." Unless you consider accusation "due process" no level of government has the authority to take anyone's property without a trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleBobo Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 I read the FBI's affidavit, the whole dang thing, and I still cannot see the crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Not exactly true. The feds and even local LE simply take whatever they like these days , often without charging anyone with any crime, and it's up to the owner to try to recover their property by legal means. Asset forfeiture laws are plainly unconstututional as per the 5th amendment which states:"No person shall.......be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law..." Unless you consider accusation "due process" no level of government has the authority to take anyone's property without a trial. I am afraid the so referred to "Patriot Act" took care of that with all of it's deliberate vaguenesses. Basically the all powerful and omnipotent government can do whatever the hell they feel like now, they just "link" you to terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 While I am an originalist when it comes to the Constitution, it's important to note that there are difinite exceptions to the strict reading of the Fifth Amendment. After all, should we just let violent men run free instead of incarcerating them before a trial? What of the case with an armed bandit killing people? Should police not be allowed to shoot and perhaps kill the bandit before a trial? The same is true for property, should we not seize assets related to the crime before the trial rather than letting the alleged criminal abscond with them to a place outside our jurisdiction? Is the system perfect? No, but before we go off on a path of doing nothing until a verdict is rendered in a court of law, we must realize the implications of that path, which in my mind would be chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bahabully Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 While I am an originalist when it comes to the Constitution, it's important to note that there are difinite exceptions to the strict reading of the Fifth Amendment. After all, should we just let violent men run free instead of incarcerating them before a trial? What of the case with an armed bandit killing people? Should police not be allowed to shoot and perhaps kill the bandit before a trial? The same is true for property, should we not seize assets related to the crime before the trial rather than letting the alleged criminal abscond with them to a place outside our jurisdiction? Is the system perfect? No, but before we go off on a path of doing nothing until a verdict is rendered in a court of law, we must realize the implications of that path, which in my mind would be chaos. A very strong point. What really gets my goat is not the Fed seizing property... my gut feel is that 99.99% of the time the fed is probably getting bad guys who have it coming, and that the .01% of the good guys who fall victim to the process will eventually get thier stuff back after the fed gets around to discovering that they are in fact good guys. The true constitutional breach in our society is not the fed seizing property of suspected bad guys, it's the seizure of property by states (enabled by the fed) from good guys in order to build a new shopping mall or subdivision, simply because the "private" group funding the seizure has more money than the present property owner/s. Seizure of private property from citizens of the US by other private interest groups is rampant and is most definitely Unconstitutional. The golden rule should not supercede the Constitution or Law,,, but it does all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreasureGirl Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 I am afraid the so referred to "Patriot Act" took care of that with all of it's deliberate vaguenesses. Basically the all powerful and omnipotent government can do whatever the hell they feel like now, they just "link" you to terrorism. We should elect a president who would do away with the Patriot Act... *cough* Ron Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 While I am an originalist when it comes to the Constitution, it's important to note that there are difinite exceptions to the strict reading of the Fifth Amendment. After all, should we just let violent men run free instead of incarcerating them before a trial? What of the case with an armed bandit killing people? Should police not be allowed to shoot and perhaps kill the bandit before a trial? The same is true for property, should we not seize assets related to the crime before the trial rather than letting the alleged criminal abscond with them to a place outside our jurisdiction? Is the system perfect? No, but before we go off on a path of doing nothing until a verdict is rendered in a court of law, we must realize the implications of that path, which in my mind would be chaos. Lot of people thought lots happened with the "Patriot Act", which yes, I put in quotes because I do not believe it is patriotic to surrender basic liberties because of fools. But there was a time in the Nation's history when Habeus Corpus was suspended, and people held without trial for long periods of time - the US Civil War of 1861-1865. Abraham Lincoln and his administration had numerous issues with Chief Justice Roger Taney regarding this, but one must consider that Roger Taney was also an obstructionist to much needed reform with slavery, and the rights of African Americans to serve in the military etc. Only his death in 1864 brought about much needed clearance and increased Lincolns power to see the conflict to a successful conclusion. The threats to Americans and their individual rights were far greater, exponentially so, in the Civil War than at any other time in the nationhood of the United States. The nation survived those threats, Habeus Corpus was restored, and there seemed to be an understanding that the harsh interpretations of the Constitution were only temporary through to the conclusion of the conflict. We do not have a timeline for ending the "Patriot Act". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 The government is doing nothing that it hasnt done well before the patriot act...you dont honestly think federal agents werent confiscating items that they believe were used in a crime, or gained through criminal enterprise long before the patriot act? They had a warrant from a federal magistrate judge to seize property related in a crime. This is nothing new at all and is done all the time, well before the patriot act was ever conceived. They are being charged with forgery, mail fraud, and wire fraud and those things confiscated are articles that are traceable to these crimes. I guess the difference is, this is not a guy growing pot in his basement so now we care more? Because of course if you grow pot in your basement they will, without doubt, take everything you own in the end...but if its a guy with a huge arsenal calling himself jesus or people minting alternative currency pretending to care about anything other than a profit....it becomes a different story. In the end, nothing out of the ordinary has happened here...they served a warrant and confiscated property related to an enterprise that they believe they have ample proof were committing crimes. If they are found innocent, I have no doubt the items will be returned. The bright side is if he is found not-guilty...he might be able to sucker more people into trading usable federal reserve notes for his monopoly money... Its good to have a healthy skepticism about the motive and actions of our government (even more so a company like Norfraud) but so many are so quick to think the sky is falling, so quick to cry foul...such things makes so called patriots out of scum...I will take a wait and see attitude, follow the case and see how it turns out, read more details before calling for revolution....the system has never been perfect and never will be...no need to constantly seek to knock it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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