LostDutchman Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 I got this e mail this morning: Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters: I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville. For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts. We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money. But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken. This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too. The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form. I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions. Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency. Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation. Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low. Bernard von NotHaus Monetary Architect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtS Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Fascinating...I did not know such a venture even existed. I'm curious as to the events that led up to this raid...I'll have to read up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 This story has not been picked up by major news outlets, so a word of caution that this could be one of his rumours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted November 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 it was picked up by local evansville news so i bet its legit http://courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/l...-office-raided/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreasureGirl Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 I don't know much about this, but this sort of sounds like stamping out the competition to me... "Welcome to the world of business," if anyone here is a fan of Futurama... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 15, 2007 Report Share Posted November 15, 2007 Hm. Never paid much attention to the Liberty Dollars before.... While I haven't read the actual law on it, I have read in mony other places that federal reserve notes and us coins do not have to be accepted by the people unless it is for payment of a debt. It has been further suggested that we the people could decide on how to be paid. Now, I'm not big-city-lawyer, so for the someone who may be, please explain to me this: If these specie backed "rounds" and "banknotes" are illegal to use, then what will happen to the local currencies found in many municipalities throughout the land? Will they be relieved of their 'funds' as well? Is it because these Liberty Dollars are based at a company making money off people buying into their system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 mmm.. futurama. but I do think its kind of fishy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowtracks Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Bout time they busted those schmucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Liberty Dollars are a joke...They take your money and send you a silver round...thats fine and good...in business to sell silver over melt value...not a problem. The problem is their stated purpose...its to make money but they project themselves as trying to do something noble like trying to get people on a silver standard... If you buy the paper money, you are a fool...if you buy the silver rounds...at least you have a bit of silver and a novelty coin...otherwise...its a money making venture... They have a list of a minute amount of people who would take these as payment and urge you to try to get others to accept it...they take silver and put a US dollar price to it pretty much defeating the purpose of going around the US fiat system...and if silver goes up past the denomination? Well they have a solution to that!! For a small fee you can send back the silver you have and have it reminted....at a small fee of course The worthless novelty bills value will go up!! So you can have a bill no one will accept as payment that is worth its weight in silver As for the legality of what they are doing...I wouldnt comment...but all they are in reality are sellers of fantasy tokens and bit better than a pyramid scheme. Dont like the fiat system? It seems the makers of the Liberty Dollar dont have any problem taking your fiat money, that can be used to buy a new house...in exchange for a silver token that cant buy anything. If I offer them some of my bad old fiat money for a coin...they will happily take it. The liberty dollar is not going to be the solution to fiat money...and they know it...its a business venture plain and simple...its just a company trying to make money playing on sentiments of people who dont like the fiat system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Ah but the Liberty Dollars are no better than FRN's, remember when the Liberty Dollar was $10 and then it got devalued to $20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 This story was apparently picked up by the Evansville Courier, but sources mostly information from Nuthaus himself, his personal email to them. This sounds like a fed line that he made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28Plain Posted November 16, 2007 Report Share Posted November 16, 2007 Foxnews and NBC have also covered it. There are youtube links in this blog post: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/016944.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkykile Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Okay, say I wanted to 'buy into' this scheme... What do I send in payment? Were people sending FRN monies, US Mint gold and silver (all of it seemingly worthless to them)? Or were they taking only money orders and checks... which, by the way, go right back to the US mints. Yep, a money making scheme it has to be, or why would someone go to all this trouble? Just a thought. Oh, by the way, when doing my genealogy I discovered two scaliwag ancestors... grandfathers a few generations ago... that were accused of making money... with their own machines. This was in Marion County Indiana. Then before them, in a different line of scaliwag ancestors in Connecticut, a multi generational grandfather and his brother-in-law, were arrested for printing the money of Rhode Island. Isn't this all just a lot of fun? Corky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 This has been all over the news here in Evansville. I don't do any business there, though. Whew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Hm. Never paid much attention to the Liberty Dollars before.... While I haven't read the actual law on it, I have read in mony other places that federal reserve notes and us coins do not have to be accepted by the people unless it is for payment of a debt. It has been further suggested that we the people could decide on how to be paid. Now, I'm not big-city-lawyer, so for the someone who may be, please explain to me this: If these specie backed "rounds" and "banknotes" are illegal to use, then what will happen to the local currencies found in many municipalities throughout the land? Will they be relieved of their 'funds' as well? Is it because these Liberty Dollars are based at a company making money off people buying into their system? From what I've read, the notes are not the problem, it's the coins which are too similar and easily confused with US mint issues, that's how it all started. So whether it's Bay Bucks or Ithaca Hours, those local scrip currencies should be unaffected. If their coins were not denominated in dollars and did not have inscriptions similar to US coins, they probably would have had no problem either. If this was a legit way to bring back a metal standard, they should have denominated the coins in ounces (half ounce, quarter ounce, tenth ounce, etc.) and then just posted the daily exchange rate with fiat fed notes on the web each day, then all this would have been avoided. To cover their operating expenses, they could have simply charged a surcharge on the rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Actually anybody can issue something and denominate it in dollars too, look at the Indian nations that are issuing these things. What comes into play with the Liberty Dollars, the coins, is that people have gone into businesses and attempted to pay, and were insistent that they were valid tender. This is where Bernhard Nothaus has gotten into trouble, he basically is saying they are money, when in fact in the eyes of the government they are not. Also he would have a better case to stand on if he did not issue the paper notes, and did NOT devalue his money by making the ounce of silver be worth $20 instead of $10 hypothetical dollars. So in the governments eye, he is not afoul of regulation for issuing this stuff, it is that he calls it money, and expects people to tender it as such. The Ithaca hours, Bay Bucks in Traverse City which Mike Marotta was a part of, etc. are never referred to as money, they are more of a "value" that has redemptive means by exchange. They also have a purpose in keeping value in local communities and businesses and bypassing box stores like Wally World. I was invited to design the next round of Bay Bucks in Traverse, but so far they have not expressed an interest yet in changing what they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreasureGirl Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 I can understand all of this, but how are the Feds justified in confiscating the headquarters' non-minted gold and silver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willieboyd2 Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Maybe Bernard von NotHaus and Ron Paul can get OJ Simpson to rob the office. Then there would really be publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 If the Juice is squeezed into a prison cell, I don't think he will be helping anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 I can understand all of this, but how are the Feds justified in confiscating the headquarters' non-minted gold and silver? ¿Quien sabes? Who knows? They taketh away in 1933, and I believe they will take it again when and if they decide to. When the *bleep* hits the fan, you would be amazed how not free you really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 When one is charged with a crime, they will take possessions, at first those items that are related to the crime...and if found guilty...everything. If found innocent...it will be returned. If you sell drugs, they take all that might have been involved or bought with money from that endeavor...this is no different... This is the second time someone has mentioned the confiscation of bullion and the outlawing of private ownership of such...this is in no way similar to that. Those people just had bullion sitting in safety deposit boxes...Norscam is accused of crimes...while I will not comment on whether it is a justified accusation...I have never liked them, they are not in anyway worthy of my concern as a private money making venture (a dishonest one at that) thus I will, like I do with any people charge with crimes...wait and see and are innocent until proven otherwise...right now in my mind they are just guilty of being dishonest and disingenuous....like so many other things though, people are so easily sent into 'sky is falling mode'. Of course these events mean that the government is going to take all mah gold about as much as allowing gay marriage will mean the next step is allowing people to marry the family dog (using this just to illustrate the hyperbole tactic used by people)...there is nothing about this case that suggests this in any way. If they outlaw the ownership of gold I will be the first person sneaking into the woods with a chest and a shovel... But this in no way suggests that is on the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edix2001 Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 Money artist Stephen Barnwell recently wrote that some years ago the feds raided money artist JSG Boggs' studio and took everything. They never charged him and nothing was ever returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreasureGirl Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 ¿Quien sabes? Necesita mejorar su espanol. Es "quien sabe," no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 Money artist Stephen Barnwell recently wrote that some years ago the feds raided money artist JSG Boggs' studio and took everything. They never charged him and nothing was ever returned. I would say that if this is true, and of course who knows, then he should probably be doing something about getting his stuff back...If the government raided me and took my belongings, I wouldnt just say 'oh well' and not take action and make sure every news agency knew about my story and would never stop until I got my stuff back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I would say that if this is true, and of course who knows, then he should probably be doing something about getting his stuff back...If the government raided me and took my belongings, I wouldnt just say 'oh well' and not take action and make sure every news agency knew about my story and would never stop until I got my stuff back... You don't know what they said in the way of threats etc. Guys coming in with guns drawn can be rather intimidating, even long afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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