bobh Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I was inspired by RW Julian's concordance between the reference numbers in his book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917" and those of Severin. While Severin's catalogs used to be the absolute standard for Russian gold, platinum and silver coins, in the meantime there are many others which are equally (or more) important: Uzdenikov and Bitkin come to mind. Of course, there are many others: Rylov/Sobolin, Diakov, Adrianov, etc. Also, there are the more specialized references such as Brekke for copper, or Kazakov for Nicholas II. What I envision is an online internet reference where we could choose one reference from a list and enter the corresponding number for a certain coin type, year and/or mintmark variety, then view or download a list of all other appropriate references with their catalog numbers corresponding to that type/year/variety/etc. Has anything like this been done before? If not, I can start with a small area and set something up for the catalogs which I own. If the idea catches on, I would need some help for areas which I do not collect and for which I have few or no reference materials (Peter I gold and silver coins, for example). I have my own website (hosted) which I could provide for testing purposes; also, I can do the necessary database and web development if we keep it simple. Once we have something presentable, we might be able to move it to another website (the RNS, for example ). The actual database and website design would be rather easy. The hard work would be entering all the catalog numbers into the database, but this wouldn't require any special technical expertise. At first, we would only be concerned with catalog numbers. Later, perhaps reference images and more detailed descriptions could be added to the database. Also, IANAL ("I am not a lawyer"), so what about copyright concerns? I would assume that it would be OK merely to quote a reference number without getting special permission from the copyright owners of all these reference works. But I'm not sure... Who would be willing to help, or perhaps has access to data which is already present in electronic form to avoid typing? And which catalogs do you consider the most important? Ideally, when we are finished, we would have as many different ones as possible. But it would suffice to have between 3 and 5 to start with, preferably catalogs with the widest range of coins (e.g., Uzdenikov and Bitkin would certainly be candidates). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I was inspired by RW Julian's concordance between the reference numbers in his book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917" and those of Severin. While Severin's catalogs used to be the absolute standard for Russian gold, platinum and silver coins, in the meantime there are many others which are equally (or more) important: Uzdenikov and Bitkin come to mind. Of course, there are many others: Rylov/Sobolin, Diakov, Adrianov, etc. Also, there are the more specialized references such as Brekke for copper, or Kazakov for Nicholas II. What I envision is an online internet reference where we could choose one reference from a list and enter the corresponding number for a certain coin type, year and/or mintmark variety, then view or download a list of all other appropriate references with their catalog numbers corresponding to that type/year/variety/etc. Has anything like this been done before? If not, I can start with a small area and set something up for the catalogs which I own. If the idea catches on, I would need some help for areas which I do not collect and for which I have few or no reference materials (Peter I gold and silver coins, for example). I have my own website (hosted) which I could provide for testing purposes; also, I can do the necessary database and web development if we keep it simple. Once we have something presentable, we might be able to move it to another website (the RNS, for example ). The actual database and website design would be rather easy. The hard work would be entering all the catalog numbers into the database, but this wouldn't require any special technical expertise. At first, we would only be concerned with catalog numbers. Later, perhaps reference images and more detailed descriptions could be added to the database. Also, IANAL ("I am not a lawyer"), so what about copyright concerns? I would assume that it would be OK merely to quote a reference number without getting special permission from the copyright owners of all these reference works. But I'm not sure... Who would be willing to help, or perhaps has access to data which is already present in electronic form to avoid typing? And which catalogs do you consider the most important? Ideally, when we are finished, we would have as many different ones as possible. But it would suffice to have between 3 and 5 to start with, preferably catalogs with the widest range of coins (e.g., Uzdenikov and Bitkin would certainly be candidates). It's an intriguing idea but it might be a pain to maintain. Consider, for example, that each time a new edition of Uzdenikov's book comes out, all (or nearly all) the numbers change. But it would be a mistake to exclude Uzdenikov because his catalog is such a useful (and widely used) reference. I understand that Bitkin numbers changed in Bitkin 2 from those in Bitkin 1, so I think it could get very complicated to try to keep it up to date if other sources do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted November 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 It's an intriguing idea but it might be a pain to maintain. Consider, for example, that each time a new edition of Uzdenikov's book comes out, all (or nearly all) the numbers change. But it would be a mistake to exclude Uzdenikov because his catalog is such a useful (and widely used) reference. I understand that Bitkin numbers changed in Bitkin 2 from those in Bitkin 1, so I think it could get very complicated to try to keep it up to date if other sources do the same. Indeed ... this is a very real problem. Of course, one might just treat different editions (conceptually speaking) as different reference works entirely. I think this would be the way to go. Even if numbers didn't change, later editions might add varieties with some sub-numbering scheme such as tacking on alphabetic letters after the number. That way, it would also be possible to ascertain whether a certain variety were unlisted in earlier editions of the same reference. Thanks for your feedback, grivna1726! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I was inspired by RW Julian's concordance between the reference numbers in his book "Russian Silver Coinage 1796-1917" and those of Severin. While Severin's catalogs used to be the absolute standard for Russian gold, platinum and silver coins, in the meantime there are many others which are equally (or more) important: Uzdenikov and Bitkin come to mind. Of course, there are many others: Rylov/Sobolin, Diakov, Adrianov, etc. Also, there are the more specialized references such as Brekke for copper, or Kazakov for Nicholas II. What I envision is an online internet reference where we could choose one reference from a list and enter the corresponding number for a certain coin type, year and/or mintmark variety, then view or download a list of all other appropriate references with their catalog numbers corresponding to that type/year/variety/etc. Has anything like this been done before? If not, I can start with a small area and set something up for the catalogs which I own. If the idea catches on, I would need some help for areas which I do not collect and for which I have few or no reference materials (Peter I gold and silver coins, for example). I have my own website (hosted) which I could provide for testing purposes; also, I can do the necessary database and web development if we keep it simple. Once we have something presentable, we might be able to move it to another website (the RNS, for example ). The actual database and website design would be rather easy. The hard work would be entering all the catalog numbers into the database, but this wouldn't require any special technical expertise. At first, we would only be concerned with catalog numbers. Later, perhaps reference images and more detailed descriptions could be added to the database. Also, IANAL ("I am not a lawyer"), so what about copyright concerns? I would assume that it would be OK merely to quote a reference number without getting special permission from the copyright owners of all these reference works. But I'm not sure... Who would be willing to help, or perhaps has access to data which is already present in electronic form to avoid typing? And which catalogs do you consider the most important? Ideally, when we are finished, we would have as many different ones as possible. But it would suffice to have between 3 and 5 to start with, preferably catalogs with the widest range of coins (e.g., Uzdenikov and Bitkin would certainly be candidates). The idea is a good one. As far as I know it is permissible under copyright laws to do a concordance of this type so long as the actual catalogue descriptions are not included. I did the concordance with Severin without any negative feedback. Having said that, however, the points raised by other posters are equally good. There are variant numbers for Uzdenikov and Bitkin and it really would be necessary to have, for example, a column labelled Bitkin I and Bitkin II. Problems will also arise because authors have different views on what should be assigned a catalogue number and what should not. In my work on the Russian silver I generally ignored the berry counts from Giel-Ilyin unless they helped to determine novodels &&. The Giel-Ilyin and Ilyin-Tolstoy references are still widely used and also ought to be considered in any concordance. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I believe it is very feasible to do especially if we compile it as a database. I have actually given a thought about this when I took a look at various auction catalogues and they made zero sense when authors updated their catalogues. Perhaps it's easier to break it down by era, year, denomination. I am well aware that some authors only specialize in certain era such as Poluiko for Anna. I am no lawyer but I am assuming that by compiling a database as well as not publically allowing individual data reference to be read as it is (assumed if programmed correctly), I cannot see at the moment how it can possibly infringe copyright as a user can only possibly access a few coins at a time. For example if I want it to show 1735 ruble, it will give me a range of reference catalogues, Uzd3 #1711, Uzd2 #1708, Bit2 #107, Bit 1 #103 etc but it cannot show Uzdenikov's catalogue by itself. The only major issue is when each copyright holders want a royalty out of this or object to this. Personally it might be workable if each copyright holder are notified to see if they are interested in such project. I can actually see a merit out of this as if this project is complete, future auction houses can actually refer to this and make their lives quicker and if they are nice or allow us to add reference to some of the rarer coins sold, such coins are made to be easier to track. I see the current method of checking references as cucumbersome and in fact, I am tempted to type the whole Uzdenikov out myself as it's just difficult to flip through 300+ pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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