More interesting find from the copper hoard

[squirrel]

Is this coin a kopek or a denga?

[gxseries]

Squirrel, it's definately a 1795 MM 1 kopek and I don't think MM minted denga or polushka in that year.

 

Mass of this coin is 7.4-7.5g and diameter is at 27mm. My eyes just wandered around tonight and spotted the huge O that I missed as well as the partial figure one. I would be shocked if this is the 1762 1 kopek coin but I think it's quite unlikely.

[squirrel]

If its a kopek, it would have been overstruck on a 1762 2 kopek, not the 1 kopek.

 

what do you think you see under the 1731 Denga? It looks to me to be not overstruck.

[Topher]

This is what I believe it to be:

 

Outlined digit:

FWIW - I can see the 8 pretty clearly even without resizing. It's the other digits that I am straining to see.

[gxseries]

Another update: Appearently it might seem that I was looking at the wrong orientation and it might seem that the 1762 (?) 1 kopek was double struck or so and it threw me off completely.

 

 

This is what I am seeing - I don't see the letter "H"

 

 

Steve, by any chances would you have any image of a 1762 kopek? It might make a good comparsion to compare to - Uzdenikov's example isn't good enough for me. I don't believe it's a 2 kopeks no matter how many times I have looked at.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Another update: Appearently it might seem that I was looking at the wrong orientation and it might seem that the 1762 (?) 1 kopek was double struck or so and it threw me off completely.

 

 

This is what I am seeing - I don't see the letter "H"

 

 

Steve, by any chances would you have any image of a 1762 kopek? It might make a good comparsion to compare to - Uzdenikov's example isn't good enough for me. I don't believe it's a 2 kopeks no matter how many times I have looked at.

 

Hello. I havent been able to follow this thread too well recently....there's some new web-monitor software at my company which is blocking images on this website ( ) but not the site itself. So I can read the posts but cant see the pictures. I don't know where Elizabeth and Peter coins came into this discussion and hope the images will help.

I would normally be able to see the images at home but....I'm in the process of moving house so wont have access to my home computer until at least Nov 3rd. Can't help until then. I do have a nice high resolution photo of a PIII 1K but again can't provide it at the moment. Sorry!

 

Steve

[gxseries]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I guess this is the most efficient way of reminding people

 

Steve - by any chances you have access to your home computer? I'm waiting

 

Also Igors, I believe the images I asked for is the high resolution photos of the overstrucked Moldavian coinages - if possible, a close lookup of reengraved years.

 

Thanks!

[STEVE MOULDING]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I guess this is the most efficient way of reminding people

 

Steve - by any chances you have access to your home computer? I'm waiting

 

Also Igors, I believe the images I asked for is the high resolution photos of the overstrucked Moldavian coinages - if possible, a close lookup of reengraved years.

 

Thanks!

Yes my computer is now connected and I have internet!

Should be able to reply more fully very soon.

 

Steve

[STEVE MOULDING]

Sorry to bring up an old thread but I guess this is the most efficient way of reminding people

 

Steve - by any chances you have access to your home computer? I'm waiting

 

Also Igors, I believe the images I asked for is the high resolution photos of the overstrucked Moldavian coinages - if possible, a close lookup of reengraved years.

 

Thanks!

These are from Moneti and Medali (Russia)

 

 

 

 

I have a better image of another example (I know of at least 4), but this should be a good start :-)

 

Steve

[gxseries]

Steve, most definately a great thanks to you! I am very sure that I have an overstruck 1762 1 kopek which was actually struck twice which makes it extremely difficult to interpret the underlayer image but I'm sure it's very obvious that it's a 1 kopek even from the earlier photos. I guess investing on a QX3 or 5 would be a good idea to get more detailed photos.

 

I decided to give another shot before I get frustrated over trying to show what I have here - hopefully it should be clearer than the other photos that I have shown:

 

 

 

Sorry, still can't figure out the exact vectors - I'm not a gifted person when it comes down to arts but hopefully you can see some background image even in the first image - there is definately the letter "D" at the horse's head and two "O"s and the digits "1"

[squirrel]

It is impossible.

 

1762 Peter III 1 kopek was overstruck on a DENGA of Elizabeth. Then struck over again by Catherine II to a DENGA.

 

Look closely at the example by Steve M, and you can read "DENGA" under there, and see parts of Elizabeth's monogram.

[gxseries]

squirrel, I am well aware that technically it shouldn't be possible under the weight law. However there seems to be examples of copper coins struck on "non-standard" planchets as Uzdenikov titles it in his 1994 edition. Appearently a fair amont of them refer back to the Geogrii Mihailovich collection.

 

I would love to read what Uzdenikov wrote but pulling the dictionary to translate the words one by one has been putting me off. Examples seem to be quite bizarre.

 

 

Personally though, I am not trying to figure out what it is supposed to be there, instead trying to figure out what is most likely there so that I will not be biased in what I am expected to find. The best example is the early Elizabeth kopek coin, where it is overstruck on Swedish 1 ore coinage. That I find is one of the most interesting and yet not really mentioned in the literatures that I have seen, except a brief illustration by Spassky.

 

[squirrel]

GX.. Now is understand where you going with this.

 

I didnt realize you were factoring for the possibility of an overweight error. I other than UZD, i think the Brekke supplement has a chapter on off-weight coins, and if i recall, one of Dimitry Markov's catalogs had a collection of off-weight and other errors a while back... ill see if i can dig up something at home. (its still the workday now, in these parts). That would indeed be an interesting find!

[squirrel]

Hi GX.. i justed checked my Brekke supplement (97) and the chapter on off-wieght coins is the same VV Uzdenikov article to which you refer, with same illustrations, and text in English!

 

 

Dimitry Markov Mail bid auction #6, 1998, shows a 1762 2 Kop, Peter III type, struck on a light weight coin, presumably a Denga, of 4.81 grams.

 

hope this info is useful

[Bill Snyder]

Hi GX.. i justed checked my Brekke supplement (97) and the chapter on off-wieght coins is the same VV Uzdenikov article to which you refer, with same illustrations, and text in English!

Dimitry Markov Mail bid auction #6, 1998, shows a 1762 2 Kop, Peter III type, struck on a light weight coin, presumably a Denga, of 4.81 grams.

 

hope this info is useful

 

I have an over-weight 1770-EM 1/4 kopek from that same Markov sale. (4.34gms vs 2.56gms target). I seem to remember reading that under and overweight coins were deliberately kept on hand at the Mint to put with otherwise out of weight-limit groups of 100 coins that were being tested.

 

Bill

[STEVE MOULDING]

squirrel, I am well aware that technically it shouldn't be possible under the weight law. However there seems to be examples of copper coins struck on "non-standard" planchets as Uzdenikov titles it in his 1994 edition. Appearently a fair amont of them refer back to the Geogrii Mihailovich collection.

 

I would love to read what Uzdenikov wrote but pulling the dictionary to translate the words one by one has been putting me off. Examples seem to be quite bizarre.

 

gxseries...the English translation of the same article ("Off-Weight Russian Copper Coins" by V V Uzdenikov) appeared in the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society, #38 (Spring 1990). Many other of Uzdenikov's articles have also appeared in English in the JRNS in years past.

 

 

Steve

[mummytrol]

gxseries...the English translation of the same article ("Off-Weight Russian Copper Coins" by V V Uzdenikov) appeared in the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society, #38 (Spring 1990). Many other of Uzdenikov's articles have also appeared in English in the JRNS in years past.

 

 

Steve

HI! coinguys! You dispute worth nothing. Nothing to do with numismatiks or history. Just some strange pictures. Thank you. Mummytrol.

[gxseries]

No, this is an interesting piece mummytrol and I believe it requires a bit of understanding of numismatics and history with this coin. If you have difficulty understanding what I am trying to show, what I am trying to show is the underlying image of a 1762 kopek.

 

From what I gathered (correct me if I am wrong Steve), a 1762 kopek is supposed to be overstruck on a 1757-1761 denga. However the weight of this coin is 7.5g, which is quite ambigious but I am assuming that it weighted more as corrosion took a fair bit of it's weight away. The weight of a normal kopek is supposed to be at 10.24g and during 1762, this was reduced down to 5.12g.

 

The real point is this, if you noticed the rarity of the 1762 arms and banners series, all of them except the kopek and denga are a lot easier to find. It's a question of why the kopeks and the dengas are much rarer. And if what I am seeing is right, 1762 kopek is mentioned as extremely rare by Uzdenikov. Yet interestingly enough, Steve did an investigation on the rarity of 1 kopek and it may be a shock of how scarce they may be. Catherine I kopek perhaps may be a terribly underrated series but that is another day's talk. Steve's article can be seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~smoulding/main01.htm

 

As of why the 1762 kopek was struck on a kopek planchet, that remains as a mystery as it might have been done accidentally or deliberately. And then this seems to be "fixed" in 1788 back in MM to the right denomination. Now the bizarre bit is, why is there ever a need overstrike a perfectly 'ok' coin when there are a fair amount of Moldavian coins to be overstruck? To me, it makes no sense as overstriking is mainly due to lack of planchets as well as it is used to remove old designs. However, none of it is making sense to me at the moment other than test sampling. Perhaps like what Steve said, Moldavan coins are perhaps harder to strike and older coins were used as a test example but then, was there ever a need to do so when there is a lack of planchets available? Also, like Steve mentioned, the only 1795/88MM 1 kopek over 1788 MM 1 kopek example he has seen is an example in Grand Duke's collection but what I am curious is what denomination the Arms and Banner is.

 

Also, what are the chances of a coin circulated in the public in 1788 and then recalled some 6 years later in 1795 to be overstruck again, especially when there weren't that many kopeks circulated? I'm somewhat suspecting that some coins were kept and such overstrikes are only meant for internal mint testing.

 

Steve - looks like I will have to get hold of the entire RNS articles one day. Most catalogues are priced absurdly mad these days

[mummytrol]

No, this is an interesting piece mummytrol and I believe it requires a bit of understanding of numismatics and history with this coin. If you have difficulty understanding what I am trying to show, what I am trying to show is the underlying image of a 1762 kopek.

 

From what I gathered (correct me if I am wrong Steve), a 1762 kopek is supposed to be overstruck on a 1757-1761 denga. However the weight of this coin is 7.5g, which is quite ambigious but I am assuming that it weighted more as corrosion took a fair bit of it's weight away. The weight of a normal kopek is supposed to be at 10.24g and during 1762, this was reduced down to 5.12g.

 

The real point is this, if you noticed the rarity of the 1762 arms and banners series, all of them except the kopek and denga are a lot easier to find. It's a question of why the kopeks and the dengas are much rarer. And if what I am seeing is right, 1762 kopek is mentioned as extremely rare by Uzdenikov. Yet interestingly enough, Steve did an investigation on the rarity of 1 kopek and it may be a shock of how scarce they may be. Catherine I kopek perhaps may be a terribly underrated series but that is another day's talk. Steve's article can be seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~smoulding/main01.htm

 

As of why the 1762 kopek was struck on a kopek planchet, that remains as a mystery as it might have been done accidentally or deliberately. And then this seems to be "fixed" in 1788 back in MM to the right denomination. Now the bizarre bit is, why is there ever a need overstrike a perfectly 'ok' coin when there are a fair amount of Moldavian coins to be overstruck? To me, it makes no sense as overstriking is mainly due to lack of planchets as well as it is used to remove old designs. However, none of it is making sense to me at the moment other than test sampling. Perhaps like what Steve said, Moldavan coins are perhaps harder to strike and older coins were used as a test example but then, was there ever a need to do so when there is a lack of planchets available? Also, like Steve mentioned, the only 1795/88MM 1 kopek over 1788 MM 1 kopek example he has seen is an example in Grand Duke's collection but what I am curious is what denomination the Arms and Banner is.

 

Also, what are the chances of a coin circulated in the public in 1788 and then recalled some 6 years later in 1795 to be overstruck again, especially when there weren't that many kopeks circulated? I'm somewhat suspecting that some coins were kept and such overstrikes are only meant for internal mint testing.

 

Steve - looks like I will have to get hold of the entire RNS articles one day. Most catalogues are priced absurdly mad these days

Dear friend! The answer is very easy, to overstrike small coin you need to use small punch and force 2 times stronger than regular strike. I think the decision was to melt small coins , that is why They are so rare. I have never seen any overstriked one kopeck or denga. Thank you. Mummytrol.

[squirrel]

http://molotok.ru/item269738166_1_kopejka_...any_rrrrrr.html

 

GX, this one might interest you! (if its genuine?)

[mummytrol]

http://molotok.ru/item269738166_1_kopejka_...any_rrrrrr.html

 

GX, this one might interest you! (if its genuine?)

I did not meen that all of these coin were melted. And this coin is not overstrike even if it is original.Tsnks. M.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Time to revisit this, as my promised response is long overdue.

 

gxseries...I've taken a long look at the photos you've provided of the MM Kopeck candidate. One thing we haven't yet talked about is the possibility that this is a 1788MM Kopeck (scarce, but not rare). There is so much corrosion that it is reasonably possible. It's a less exciting possibility but is more likely. It would also explain why we don't see any Moldavian undercoin, though again I'm having a hard time seeing any undercoin at all. For a 1788MM Kopeck the undercoin is more likely to be a 1762 Peter III 2 Kopeck.

 

Let's look at the last digit of the date. You said it's a 5, but later showed pictures and suggested a recut from an 8. It may just be an 8 after all. Here's a comparison of the last digit from a 1788MM coin and your coin.

 

The pointed oval at the bottom is similar in both cases. Unfortunately I can't look closely at a 1795 date, in all the examples I have the 5 is either extremely weak or lost in the Moldavian undercoin. I therefore am not able to say what the 5 in a 1795 example should look like.

 

Steve

[gxseries]

Steve, I can understand it's just too difficult to do any analysis with the awful photos I provided and I apologize for that

 

While I agree with the pointed oval at the bottom is very similar, the top part of the digit I'm afraid is radically different. There is a line which is then gone upwards to the right and the curve figure is quite defined. I'm hoping Igors still has his overstruck kopek and post a high resolution photo one day.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Steve, I can understand it's just too difficult to do any analysis with the awful photos I provided and I apologize for that

 

While I agree with the pointed oval at the bottom is very similar, the top part of the digit I'm afraid is radically different. There is a line which is then gone upwards to the right and the curve figure is quite defined. I'm hoping Igors still has his overstruck kopek and post a high resolution photo one day.

I'd agree we can't yet say 5 or not without seeing another. We can say possible 8. I'd like to see that upward curve in another 1795 example.

Anyway, the 1788MM is a line of inquiry we hadn't taken. Best to follow all leads

 

Steve

[Basilio]

Personally though, I am not trying to figure out what it is supposed to be there, instead trying to figure out what is most likely there so that I will not be biased in what I am expected to find. The best example is the early Elizabeth kopek coin, where it is overstruck on Swedish 1 ore coinage. That I find is one of the most interesting and yet not really mentioned in the literatures that I have seen, except a brief illustration by Spassky.

 

 

Yup - that correct - some copek's of Sestroretsk mint with 1757 and 1758 dates can be obtained with traces of swedish 1 ore 1740-1750-ss.

Swedish coins was cutted till 1 kop size and overstruked.

 

very uncommon specimen - but almost undescribed...

 

Only in GM I've found some information but it is not enough and indirect...