More interesting find from the copper hoard

[gxseries]

Pic will come soon - it's quite unbelievable at the moment.

 

So far, I have been going through VERY slowly with the copper hoard, there is quite a fair bit to look through, perhaps a kilo of corroded copper but yielding quite interesting things from it. (I'll promise to use this thread for future finds from this lot)

 

So far it yielded:

1700 denga

2 rotated 1870s 2 kopeks (15, 45 degrees off)

 

 

Right now, as I am going through a batch of 1 kopek from both Elizabeth and Catherine II era, I did remember Steve Moulding mentioning how difficult it can be to find a Catherine II kopek. That I do agree as I found 9 Elizabeth kopek which was minted from 1757-62 and a mere 1 Catherine II kopek. Feeling quite disappointed that I can't quite read the year initially, I looked at Steve's pdf about the possible year type.

 

http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Fr...possible-IV.pdf Thanks for hosting it Steve - always great to refer to it.

 

The year "95" was somewhat visible as I presumed it to be the common variety EM. I was looking at Ian's example of 1 kopek but something didn't match up as the location of his mintmark was under the legs of the horse which I couldn't find. However the letter "M" was more towards the end of "kopek" emblem. And then I looked at the left...

 

Little did I notice that I was looking at a 1795 MM 1 kopek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

 

Steve did mention in the pdf file that all known 1795 MM 1 kopek were overstruck on Moldavian paras but so far, I see no traces of it. Instead I see a trace of a crown that is overstruck, which is very puzzling - seems that it was overstruck on an earlier kopek which makes zero sense. If I remember right, isn't the metal of the Moldavian coinages quite different to the typical Russian copper used at that era? This feels more like copper instead of the cannon copper alloy that was used then. Banivechi, can you confirm that? I have no 1 para-3dengi coin to compare with. Unfortunately the edge does not reveal anything as it is rather heavily corroded... Interesting that it does have a cud in it though.

 

If it is really what I mentioned... it has made my day!

 

Will promise photos... I need a better bulb

[dustin43160]

i know or have nothing from russia but am looking forward to a picture!!!

[gxseries]

Here are some pictures:

 

 

 

Larger images here:

 

 

 

Comments, opinions anyone?

[squirrel]

Yikes! hurts the eyes trying to find details on that one!

 

But.... a quick check in Brekke... The 1795 MM 1 kopeck is also struck over kopeck of 1788 (why?) and is rated a */, even more rare than the Moldavian overstruck Kopeck!!

 

Lots of fun to be had out of that hoard! is there a good story there?

[dustin43160]

ouch looks lke its been at a bottom of a flooded basment and forgot about!!!

[banivechi]

Yes, I can confirm that the metal of Sadagura's are different than in genuine kopeks. The colour is different even if you cannot say that two Sadaguras are identical in colour ( I guess that the bronze wasn't the same alloy: the canons used as raw material were from different sources, different years, etc)

I've surrounded some kopeks by some Sadaguras to see the difference:

[gxseries]

Yikes! hurts the eyes trying to find details on that one!

 

But.... a quick check in Brekke... The 1795 MM 1 kopeck is also struck over kopeck of 1788 (why?) and is rated a */, even more rare than the Moldavian overstruck Kopeck!!

 

Lots of fun to be had out of that hoard! is there a good story there?

 

;)

 

Ok, I SHOULD be getting a Brekke soon, up to now, I still have a Uzdenikov and still worship it as a bible.

 

The lot actually does puzzle me. There aren't many duplicates, in fact there were just a few duplicates in Nicholai I and Elizabeth! You would expect plenty of duplicates in Nicholas II, Alexander III but there is a wide range of dates that I never had. It does make me wonder if it was acutally from a collector that was accidently left to rust. The odd thing is that there were no Nicholas II or Alexander III 1/2 and 1/4 kopeks.

 

An maybe Dustin might be right, accidently left in a flooded basement with some bad iron rust forming

[STEVE MOULDING]

Yikes! hurts the eyes trying to find details on that one!

 

But.... a quick check in Brekke... The 1795 MM 1 kopeck is also struck over kopeck of 1788 (why?) and is rated a */, even more rare than the Moldavian overstruck Kopeck!!

 

Lots of fun to be had out of that hoard! is there a good story there?

 

Very interesting.

 

As I said in the article, all 1795MM 1Ks that I know of show the Moldavian undercoin. No reference shows a picture of the 1788 type, though Brekke and others mention them. Diakov _may_ show a 1788-->1795MM 2K.

 

So what are these 1788-->1795MM 1K's and 1788-->1795MM 2K's ?? From the Grand Duke, we learn (Corpus Volume 7 Catherine II, note 635) that most 1795MM 1K and 2K coins were overstruck on Moldavian coins using 1788 dies. The 1788 date had presumably been recut to 1795.

 

In 1795 the mint wasn't really interested in producing new planchets for 1K's and 2K's but rather had some shoe-boxes of Moldavian coins to overstrike. My theory is that they may have

(i) tested the existing 1788 dies that had been lying around for a few years on a few new test planchets before going ahead and recutting the date to 1795 and then overstriking the test pieces. Simple enough, before going to the trouble of date recutting.

or

(ii) they went ahead and recut the date then dug a few circulated 1788 2Ks out of their pockets and tested before moving on to the Moldavians.

 

In either scenario they were testing the old 1788 dies. The overstrikes on 1788 should therefore be rarer than those struck on Moldavians... they are tests!

 

Any other theories?

[gxseries]

Thanks Banivechi for the great photos - wish I had a hoard of them! As well as, thank you Steve for the great writeup - never knew how scarce it is. By the way, how scarce is /* according to Brekke? Less than 100 examples known???

 

Here are more pictures - I'm getting a bit biased that it may be an overstrike over 1788 kopek:

 

 

 

I've rotated it so that you might be able to see the overstruck features. Firstly take a look at the crown which should be rather visible. There is almost no other feature viewable except take a look at the neck of the trampled dragon - I do see a figure "8" which corresponds well to where the year should be.

 

More interesting coins coming up.

[squirrel]

Heres mine... maybe it will help?

[gxseries]

Wow thanks Squirrel - neat example you have there.

 

Steve right now I am awfully confused over what Moscow mint tried to do in that very year. If the "usual" purpose of overstriking is to reuse "invalid" coinages to a useful coinage, or rather that is how I see it as, how much sense does it use useable coinage to overstrike or test out on?! I mean in the past, most overstrikes that I have know of often were overstruck to a new design, i.e. Elizabeth to Catherine II even though they are of same denomination. In this unusual situation here, overstriking the same denomination and design except for different year makes no economic sense!

 

The only exception I can think of is that because of the bronze alloy of the Moldavian coinages being harder than typical Russian copper coins, that might have caused them to pull out some of their older examples they had to test out. But wouldn't they have tested on invalid coinages instead of using a completely useable coinage? (in this case, the Moldavian coins)

 

Does that mean that some 1788 coins didn't leave the Moscow mint for a good seven years? 1788 to 1795 is quite a fair bit of time to be honest. Or perhaps that just shows the distribution of the 1 kopek coin at that time around Moscow - just plentiful of 1788 MM 1 kopek.

 

Unfortunately of the poor condition of the coin, I can never tell if it is a modified 1788 die. I just wished it was in a better grade but then, if the seller did advertise as such, I know I wouldn't would be able to obtain any examples thanks to the mad prices thesse days Is there any recent sales of a similar 1795 MM 1k over 1788 1 kopek or 1795 MM 1k over Moldavian para-3dengi? I can never keep up with the prices these days

[squirrel]

Very interesting.

 

As I said in the article, all 1795MM 1Ks that I know of show the Moldavian undercoin. No reference shows a picture of the 1788 type, though Brekke and others mention them. Diakov _may_ show a 1788-->1795MM 2K.

 

So what are these 1788-->1795MM 1K's and 1788-->1795MM 2K's ?? From the Grand Duke, we learn (Corpus Volume 7 Catherine II, note 635) that most 1795MM 1K and 2K coins were overstruck on Moldavian coins using 1788 dies. The 1788 date had presumably been recut to 1795.

 

In 1795 the mint wasn't really interested in producing new planchets for 1K's and 2K's but rather had some shoe-boxes of Moldavian coins to overstrike. My theory is that they may have

(i) tested the existing 1788 dies that had been lying around for a few years on a few new test planchets before going ahead and recutting the date to 1795 and then overstriking the test pieces. Simple enough, before going to the trouble of date recutting.

or

(ii) they went ahead and recut the date then dug a few circulated 1788 2Ks out of their pockets and tested before moving on to the Moldavians.

 

In either scenario they were testing the old 1788 dies. The overstrikes on 1788 should therefore be rarer than those struck on Moldavians... they are tests!

 

Any other theories?

 

Steve, This is quite interesting. I have a pair of dengas from 1788, no mm, that are obviously overstruck (broad, thin flan) with no trace of undercoin showing on either, that i can see. How are these related to this 1788 overstriking program?

[STEVE MOULDING]

:

Is there any recent sales of a similar 1795 MM 1k over 1788 1 kopek or 1795 MM 1k over Moldavian para-3dengi? I can never keep up with the prices these days

 

I have images of 5 different 1795MM 1K over Moldavian para-3dengi (there are presumably more out there). Two are Diakov plate coins, one is from a US sale several years ago, and two are from sales in Russia. Prices I can probably find, though they'e probably not too relevant now.

 

I don't have prices for 1795 MM 1K over 1788 1 kopek because, as you know, I don't know of any of these coins. The references say they exist, but I've never seen one! I havent looked closely enough at your images yet to be able to see the MM.

 

Does anybody else have one to show??

 

 

Steve

[STEVE MOULDING]

Steve, This is quite interesting. I have a pair of dengas from 1788, no mm, that are obviously overstruck (broad, thin flan) with no trace of undercoin showing on either, that i can see. How are these related to this 1788 overstriking program?

The 1788 no-mint Dengas are unusual in that they look overstruck, but actually aren't. The flans that year were just unusually thin and almost all the coins we see today are of the broad thin type.

 

Steve

[squirrel]

The 1788 no-mint Dengas are unusual in that they look overstruck, but actually aren't. The flans that year were just unusually thin and almost all the coins we see today are of the broad thin type.

 

Steve

 

Thanks, Steve

I guess i cant add a denga to my 1788 overstruck on 1762 set of 5, 2, and 1 kop's

[gxseries]

Steve, I have uploaded more photos, hopefully they will help.

 

http://www.gxseries.com/numis/1795_1k/

 

I think Uzdenikov has used an example like here, although I don't know if he referred the illustration from elsewhere.

 

[STEVE MOULDING]

Steve, I have uploaded more photos, hopefully they will help.

 

http://www.gxseries.com/numis/1795_1k/

 

I think Uzdenikov has used an example like here, although I don't know if he referred the illustration from elsewhere.

 

Yes, the Uzdenikov coin you show here is the one from the Grand Duke Corpus (Table XXXIII, #9).

It's also the same coin that Diakov uses in his book.

 

Thanks for the additional photos. I'll take a closer look.

 

Steve

[IgorS]

I have images of 5 different 1795MM 1K over Moldavian para-3dengi (there are presumably more out there). Two are Diakov plate coins, one is from a US sale several years ago, and two are from sales in Russia. Prices I can probably find, though they'e probably not too relevant now.

 

I don't have prices for 1795 MM 1K over 1788 1 kopek because, as you know, I don't know of any of these coins. The references say they exist, but I've never seen one! I havent looked closely enough at your images yet to be able to see the MM.

 

Does anybody else have one to show??

Steve

 

I have one struck over Moldavia. I think I've shown it once before, but here it is again:

[IgorS]

Since we are on the subject, here is 1795 MM 2 kopeks struck over Moldavia piece.

As you can see 95 looks 88ish.

[STEVE MOULDING]

I have one struck over Moldavia. I think I've shown it once before, but here it is again:

Very nice Igor! That's number 6! With your permission I'll add it to the database.

 

Steve

[STEVE MOULDING]

Since we are on the subject, here is 1795 MM 2 kopeks struck over Moldavia piece.

As you can see 95 looks 88ish.

 

This one I know of, but others may not have seen it. Thanks for showing Igor!

 

The 95 should be 88-ish as the dies were 1788s with a re-cut date. I guess they didn't recut very well :-)

 

Steve

[IgorS]

This one I know of, but others may not have seen it. Thanks for showing Igor!

 

The 95 should be 88-ish as the dies were 1788s with a re-cut date. I guess they didn't recut very well :-)

 

Steve

 

I agree with you. That's why I think that Brekke 175A from a 1997 Supplement is a mistake.

[gxseries]

Igors and Squirrel, would you happen to have larger images of your coins shown?

 

I'm very interested to see especially the mintmark location - mine seems to be in a slant position, i.e. not in a straight line.

[banivechi]

Thank you IgorS for showing these spectacular overstrucks!

I do not know to exist even a single one in Romania, and believe me, I probably have the biggest database of Sadagura coins from romanian collections and one of the largest collections.

Do you know the weight of the overstrucks?

[IgorS]

gxseries, I will make a better picture, but I can not guarantee when.

 

banivechi, thank you for your kind words. I do not have the weight of 1 kopek (will weigh it when I make better pictures). 2 kopeks weight is 17.39 g.

 

These do come up now and then. I've seen them in Fuchs sale, Markov sale, Moneti i Medali sale and privately.