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Has anyone seen this medal before?


Drusus
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feargodhonorkingdetail.jpg

 

here is the reverse monogram

 

and a larger pic of the other side, maybe crests might help place it...

 

feargodhonorkingdetail2.jpg

 

I assume it is german, pre WWII, probably pre WWI, seems to be using an odd...old style? german...correct me if I am wrong but it translates:

 

forchte gott ehret den konig (Fear God Honor the King)

 

Thu(v)e (tu) Recht Schev Niemand (do right the law dread no one)

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I'll go through our library to see if I can find the monogram.

 

Well... the motto "Furchte (or Forchte) Gott, tue (or thue) Recht, scheu Niemand" is a very common one. I spoke to our two history of art guys here in our institute and they said that from what they know it is being used since round about the 17th century, after the 30 year war. The word "forchte" with an o and two dots over it (the German ö) would be a reason to place this in the 17th century, or maybe the 18th. Of course there is the possibility that the artist used the old writing of the word to create a connection to older, glorious days.

 

We tried to research it and we found that the sentence is a German commonplace. A motto for the life of every German. No literary works seems to be its origin. We found it on the wall of a house from the late 17th to early 18th century (in Zeil am Main), a late 17th century judge's chair in a courthouse, as an election motto of Westphalia during the reign of Wilhelm I and on a Hanseatic Protestant church. According to the two art historians, this must be a Protestant motto. The inclusion of "ehret den Konig" confuses them. They don't understand why it is included.

 

This must be of "German" origin, but that could also include parts of the Netherlands for example. This doesn't have to be German German, but could be "Germanic". I don't really know how else to express that. :ninja: Unfortunately they couldn't recognize the city at the river.

 

On the side with the coats of arms... We can only identify one sign and that is the flower at 3 o'clock. That must be the sign of Lippe. I thought the lion at 5 o'clock is Hessen Darmstadt, but without the colors nothing is certain. The main coat of arms we couldn't place either. A shield with a diagonal stripe could mean the region Baden, but again... without the colors it is difficult to tell.

 

Your translation is correct. "Tue Recht" doesn't necessarily mean the law. I would translate it to "Do the right thing" or "Do right upon others".

 

 

EDIT: Correction; "Furchtet Gott, ehret den Konig (or Kaiser)" is from the Bible. The other two parts probably as well. 1st letter of Peter, 2 , 17. I'll see how that charges the art historians' minds.

 

EDIT2: The mottos were also found at the Sonnentempel in Schmochtitz. Build in the 19th century.

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well...it certainly could be from baden as many of the medals this came with were from baden. If I could just find another example of it somewhere or any reference at all...or figure out what town of city is on the reverse it would probable help...for now this remains simply unknown...certainly there are other medals out there like this one :ninja:

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Hi, Drusus.

 

Well, I went through our library and found a book on cyphers. Unfortunately, yours is not in it. This doesn't help you at all, but maybe it makes it interesting for cypher researchers. Perhaps you could contact one.

 

I don't think this is Baden by the way. I have the feeling, a hunch rather, that this town is Hanover. It reminds me of the drawings here..

 

Besides, the shield with diagonal stripe could also be a family coat of arms. I can see it has something on the shield. The one from Baden is usually left empty.

 

I'm really sorry about your unsatisfied curiosity. I know how annoying this can get. :ninja: The person you bought it from knew nothing about it?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yeah if you can figure out an engraver's name or initials I can look in Forrer.

it is the initials I believe as my family has or rather my grandmother had similar it might be from the town of weil (pronounced veil) My granddads book (its a Jewish one by the way contains that kind of mark at the bottom I always assumed that since the book in question has been passed down since the 1600's or 1700's don't recall which but that intials on a few things we have. It might be that my ancestor was the patron who had it commissioned (the book I mean but your coin has me thinking otherwise)

also the town of Weill was found by my great what have you ancestor or so my mom found when her boyfriend and her went to Germany at the invitation of said boyfriends old home town since they had opened a museum on the holocaust there thats when my mom afterward hopped over to the town of weil...( one of the host of her boyfriends visit recommended it thats how my mom found our family tree and the origins of the book we have and most likely why our family or at least Gran kept making her initials that way. like I said I could be wrong there could be other reasons. hope it helps

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update on this medal...Someone was able to ID the city as being Strasbourg. Without doubt that is the city and knowing the city I was able to find a few (2) other examples of the medal here:

 

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.ph...159&Match=1

 

Now I dont know german so I had to use the old Babelfish to translate the text which translates as:

 

EUROPaeISCHE coins AND MEDALS FRANCE

 

Strasbourg, city No.: 2159

 

Schaetzwert/Estimate: CHF 2000. -

 

Silver medal o. J. (1655-1678). On the Reunionsstreit. Two lions hold the behelmte stadtwappen, around the coats of arms of the elsaessischen "Dekapolis": Cathedral, Kaysersberg, Tuerkheim, Colmar, Schlettstadt, Landau, white castle, Rosheim, Hagenau and Oberehnheim. Check valve city opinion of the north, under it cartouche with with difficulty solvable mono gram (Louis XIV?). 29.38 g. E.+ L. 559. Cat. S. 895. Rarely. Good excellently.

 

The other listing reads as follows:

 

EUROPEAN COINS AND MEDALS FRANKREICH/ELSASS STRASBOURG, CITY Silver medal o. J., unsigniert. Two lions hold the behelmte stadtwappen, around a circle from ten coats of arms of the imperial cities of the Hagenauer Landvogtei//Stadtansicht, over it after r. of flying angels with Palm and branch of oil, down German signs with mono gram from the letters a R and a G. 45.61 mm; 29.69 g. angel/teach 559. R very beautiful-excellently Estimate price: 400.00 EUR No.: 2159 Schaetzwert/Estimate: CHF 2000. -

 

BTW

 

behelmte stadtwappen = the city's coat of arms with a helmet

 

elsaessischen = of Alsace, a region along the Rhine, on the French-German border

 

ten coats of arms of the imperial cities of the Hagenauer Landvogtei = cities of the province governed from Hagenau

 

Silver medal o. J. = Undated

 

On the Reunionsstreit = Commemorating the Reunion Dispute (whatever that was. Germany and France both claimed Alsace and Strasbourg.)

 

monogram is still unknown...

 

Two of the city names in the first description have wrongly been translated into English.

 

The medal seems to have to do with a union of cities. I guess the date is largely unknown as I was also told it dated earlier than the quote above. Most times there is a reason for minting a medal like this. It seems to have been minted some time in the 1600's...there seems to be a cataloging of this medal but I dont have access and I am not sure how much more info that would offer. I now know much more than I did a week ago .

 

Mainly now I am wondering the exact date of which might not be known though its known to be from 1600's...the reason for the medal is known but there must have been something like an anniversary of the union / reunion in the year it was minted?

 

The medal is much older than I expected.

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update on this medal...Someone was able to ID the city as being Strasbourg. Without doubt that is the city and knowing the city I was able to find a few (2) other examples of the medal here:

 

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.ph...159&Match=1

 

Now I dont know german so I had to use the old Babelfish to translate the text which translates as:

 

EUROPaeISCHE coins AND MEDALS FRANCE

 

Strasbourg, city No.: 2159

 

Schaetzwert/Estimate: CHF 2000. -

 

Silver medal o. J. (1655-1678). On the Reunionsstreit. Two lions hold the behelmte stadtwappen, around the coats of arms of the elsaessischen "Dekapolis": Cathedral, Kaysersberg, Tuerkheim, Colmar, Schlettstadt, Landau, white castle, Rosheim, Hagenau and Oberehnheim. Check valve city opinion of the north, under it cartouche with with difficulty solvable mono gram (Louis XIV?). 29.38 g. E.+ L. 559. Cat. S. 895. Rarely. Good excellently.

 

The other listing reads as follows:

 

EUROPEAN COINS AND MEDALS FRANKREICH/ELSASS STRASBOURG, CITY Silver medal o. J., unsigniert. Two lions hold the behelmte stadtwappen, around a circle from ten coats of arms of the imperial cities of the Hagenauer Landvogtei//Stadtansicht, over it after r. of flying angels with Palm and branch of oil, down German signs with mono gram from the letters a R and a G. 45.61 mm; 29.69 g. angel/teach 559. R very beautiful-excellently Estimate price: 400.00 EUR No.: 2159 Schaetzwert/Estimate: CHF 2000. -

 

BTW

 

behelmte stadtwappen = the city's coat of arms with a helmet

 

elsaessischen = of Alsace, a region along the Rhine, on the French-German border

 

ten coats of arms of the imperial cities of the Hagenauer Landvogtei = cities of the province governed from Hagenau

 

Silver medal o. J. = Undated

 

On the Reunionsstreit = Commemorating the Reunion Dispute (whatever that was. Germany and France both claimed Alsace and Strasbourg.)

 

monogram is still unknown...

 

Two of the city names in the first description have wrongly been translated into English.

 

The medal seems to have to do with a union of cities. I guess the date is largely unknown as I was also told it dated earlier than the quote above. Most times there is a reason for minting a medal like this. It seems to have been minted some time in the 1600's...there seems to be a cataloging of this medal but I dont have access and I am not sure how much more info that would offer. I now know much more than I did a week ago .

 

Mainly now I am wondering the exact date of which might not be known though its known to be from 1600's...the reason for the medal is known but there must have been something like an anniversary of the union / reunion in the year it was minted?

 

The medal is much older than I expected.

 

 

 

Well now I think you may have helped me with my own search concerning the coins that belonged to my gran... the one whom has that intial in the book they date to 1602 1610 and the like thanks for putting me in the right place to look...

 

and sorry if it put you in the wrong track like I said all I had to go on was a family tree and some initials...

 

again sorry.

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no need to apologize at all...thanks for offering help...I was pretty lost on this one until I found out the city. One write up says the initials are R and G...I kinda see the R...the G is a little bit of a stretch...I dont see it...and I wouldnt mind seeing some of those coins you are talking about as well if you ever get a chance to photo them.

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  • 1 month later...

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