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Coins used as planchets


belg_jos
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I have been interested in this for years. Some countries had a shortage of planchets (or an abundance of old obsolete coins), and used already struck coins as planchets for new coins. Of course, there are onetimers, that fall under the errors, but here I'd like to exclude those for now.

 

I have had the luck to be born in Belgium, and naturally fall into the coinage of our country. We've had quite some history, and declared our independance in 1831. Our country used to be a part of The Netherlands before that, and the money still circulated in our country. That is something you don't switch overnight. Belgium started looking for a fast way to mint our own coins, but that took some time. Their was still the little detail that we didn't have a king yet, so that had to be done first. After that, the design was chosen, honouring our King Leopold I. The minting went on its way, and everything was going as planned, untill they ran out of copper!

 

What to do now? Luckily they had used similar diameters and weights for the coins as the Dutch did, so the answer was simple. Since there were still a lot of 1/2 & 1 Cents of The Netherlands in circulation, they started recalling them to mint brandnew 1 & 2 Centimes on. Great idea! :ninja:

 

So now, so many years later, you get 1 & 2 Centimes that still show traces of the old coin beneath it.

 

belgholcent.jpg

 

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The second coin I would like to show, is a bit different, but then again very similar.

 

The country of origin is Italy. During the war there was a shortage of all sorts of metals, including copper-nickel. That's why Italy decided to strike their new 20 centesimi (1918-'19) on the older type of 1894-'95. This results in coins, with parts of the old coin showing.

italy20cent.jpg

 

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These are the 2 I know for quite some time. Do you guys & gals know more of these exciting examples?

 

 

Regards,

 

Jos

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Yes indeed, going back to Belgium, unused zinc plated USA cents planchets from 1943 were used for the 2 Francs coins of 1944.

 

I never figured out why Italy thought it necessary to overstrike the 20 Centesimi with a new design instead of just keeping the original coin, while at the same time still cranking out the flying nude 20 Centesimi coins until the early 1920's.

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Yes! It's called overstrike! :ninja:

 

I own a fair bit of common Russian overstruck coins but none of the rarer silver and gold coins.

 

Here is an old thread that I made about overstruck coin which I guess wasn't too successful: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...p;hl=overstrike

 

I'm still looking for an example of a Chinese overstruck Korean 5 fun - there used to be a fair amount of them but right now, no one is offering them ;)

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Yes! It's called overstrike! :ninja:

 

I own a fair bit of common Russian overstruck coins but none of the rarer silver and gold coins.

 

Here is an old thread that I made about overstruck coin which I guess wasn't too successful: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...p;hl=overstrike

 

I'm still looking for an example of a Chinese overstruck Korean 5 fun - there used to be a fair amount of them but right now, no one is offering them ;)

 

Nice addition, Gxseries ;)

 

I will certainly try to find some Russian ones, even though they are slightly older than what I actually wanted.

The Chinese overstrike will be even harder to find, since my Mandarin isn't what it used to be ;)

 

Would you have an example of that overstrike?

 

Regards,

 

Jos

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When talking about overstruck coins, you can't forget to mention Spanish Colonial 8 Reale pieces. A number of countries used these coins as planchets due to their wide-spread circulation. One of the examples would be Brazil with their 960 Reis coins. In many of those, you can still see the underlying design. Some speculate that it was done on purpose to show the quality of coin silver used.

 

I believe in the beginning of 19th Century Brittain did the same thing. First countermarking spanish colonials, later overstriking the design completely. I believe the value was set at 5 Shillings, but don't quote me on that, since British coinage is not my strongest side.

 

I have a nice reference on Brazilian overstrikes at home - i'll quote some information from it later tonight.

 

Also, every time someone mentiones overstrikes - I think back to a certain Novodel Rouble sold recently by Stacks, which was also overstruck on a Spanish Colonial 8 Reale piece:

 

http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lrid=...122&fs=true

 

~Roman

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maybe I should start a page called overstruck world coins :ninja:

 

Maybe?? Go for it! ;) I will more than gladly help as much as I can.

 

The overstrikes on provincial coins or on other 18th century coins, are a bit too unknown for me at the moment. I will however, try to get to know them, like the 2 examples I've shown above.

 

The more recent ones, are also more affordable. That's why I like the Belgian and Italian example more than the others (for now). I would like to find more 20th century examples though. Or at least from 1830 onwards.

 

Regards,

 

Jos

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:ninja: That's a winner. I was well aware of the Russians countermarking on Jefimok and then later overstriking them during Peter I era but never remember seeing such novodel overstriking. Thanks for the picture ;)

 

Looks like this thread will stay alive, not like the last time I tried ;)

 

That novodel took my breath away when I saw it for the first time. It combined the 2 coins I admire most - Spanish 8 Reales and a Russian rouble.

 

Here's some more information on 960 Reis overstrikes:

 

After the Portuguese Royal Family fled from Napoleon's invasion to their richest colony - Brazil - they used a series of punches to countermark coins in circulation in the colony at the time. The new coin was legalized in November of 1809, which ordered the striking of a coin with the extrinsic value of 960 Reis in order to facilitate commercial trade. The Spanish-American 8 reales coins used as hosts in the first series were initially acquired from Provincias del Rio de la Plata, and later from just about any available source, including the pockets of visiting sailors. Initially they were purchased at about 750 to 800 reis each, however, the exchange rate gradually increased through the years until the rate became approximately 900 reis for 8 reales in 1824. In the following 16 years, literally millions of these coins were produced. A significant number were struck over coins imported from Spain proper, probably something on the order of 10 to 20 percent of the total production. Some numismatists believe that major parts of the host coins were deliberately left visible so that occasional examiners would recognize that the overstruck Brazilian coin had the same weight and fineness as the coins from the Spanish colonies.
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A clear list would be very handy. Maybe we could think of a way to categorize them?

 

Struck on Foreign

Struck on older type

Struck on Provincial

...

 

And how about searching a coin that has been overstruck exactly in line with the old coin? :ninja:

 

I already get the shakes of excitement, when I think of it. 1 in 360 should be exactly right, if you think about it, and use 1 degree as acceptable tolerance...

 

Many ideas for a website? ;)

 

Jos

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A clear list would be very handy. Maybe we could think of a way to categorize them?

 

Struck on Foreign

Struck on older type

Struck on Provincial

...

 

And how about searching a coin that has been overstruck exactly in line with the old coin? :ninja:

 

I already get the shakes of excitement, when I think of it. 1 in 360 should be exactly right, if you think about it, and use 1 degree as acceptable tolerance...

 

Many ideas for a website? ;)

 

Jos

 

I don't think I would like those odds. It's actually 3 out of 360, since 1 degree leeway would allow a coin to be struck exactly over the host design, as well as 2 variations of 1 degree each. That would give you a probability of a coin overstruck the way you want it less than 1% (0.03).

 

You can start with just one host from every colonial mint, for example - that should keep you occupied for a few years ;)

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Nah that's almost difficult to catagorize. If we are going to put all different degrees and see how the overall coin image will look like, you might as well include the pressure and angle of how the coin was struck. It's pretty difficult to visualize honestly ;)

 

There are some famous examples such as the 1804 US dollar on a Swiss thaler (if I remember right) and many French coins etc were overstruck. Appearently overstriking even occured back to the Roman days (when I entered overstrike on ebay) so this can be a mammoth task! :ninja:

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Yes, the overstrikes go back a very long time. I saw many Romans on Coinarchives.

 

I also just won a 7 Kreuzer 1802 from Austria. Those have been overstruck on 12 Kreuzer 1795. I hope it has clear traces of the host, because the picture was very unclear. Took a chance for that price :ninja:See here.

 

We all have our own part that we know good, and maybe we can find compatible people, to make this task bearable.

 

Maybe we could crop the field to post 1600 or something?

 

 

I have 2 nice examples of the overstrike of the Belgian 2 cent 1835 on the Dutch half cent. I will show you both in a minute, and let you guys choose the one you like most. That way, I will show you what you already have said about the difficulty to categorize these.

 

Jos

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Which one would you guys choose, if you're offered these 2?

 

Both have traces of the overstrike.

 

The first is in great condition, but little traces.

The second is in a lower grade, but very clear...

 

2cent1835%20-%20compare.jpg

 

What a brainteaser :ninja:

 

Regards,

 

Jos

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I also just won a 7 Kreuzer 1802 from Austria. Those have been overstruck on 12 Kreuzer 1795. I hope it has clear traces of the host, because the picture was very unclear. Took a chance for that price ;)See here.

Few chances to see the traces of 12 kreuzer. I have 7 or 8 coins of 7 kr. 1802, different mints, but none of them seems to be overstrike :ninja:

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That is a tough choice Jos. Personally I would prefer the underlying details to be more clear.

 

This is one of my more bizarre overstrikes that Banivechi has kindly sent it over (I'm sure he would have loved to keep it)

 

903396.jpg

 

This coin here has been not just one overstrike but TWO overstrikes. (and hence three different years and three different denominations)

 

I had a feeling that Elverno had some overstriked coins too (I should ask him ;) )

 

Perhaps the best thing to catagorize is to split into just two catagories which is overstrucked old coinage and overstruck on foreign coins. Both are very challenging - heck, I don't even know if there is such a catalogue just for overstrikes :ninja:

 

And for the record of it:

 

917281.jpg

 

1 kopek overstruck over Swedish 1 ore. Russia-Sweden's relationship hasn't been much better ever since ;)

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Really nice ones Gxseries!

 

3 denominations, that is sweet :ninja:

 

Those would be a brandnew category then ;)

 

It will be difficult. Would you sort by host or by final strike?

Maybe we could split the website, and make sure it all ends up with the same pictures. Also the size of the pictures worries me. A picture below 500x500dpi, doesn't show enough. So webspace could be an issue too, I guess...

 

Many more to think about ;)

 

Regards,

 

Jos

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Perhaps it is best to catagorize it under final strike. I can't imagine how long Spain would be if it's catagorize under host, although you can make a list mentioning that Spanish reals were used for overstrikes in Australia, Brazil, Peru, etc. ;)

 

 

My point exactly. If I would collect them more intensively, I would like to look for a theme, where the host is the same.

 

Sounds exciting too :ninja:

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The first is in great condition, but little traces.

 

The first. Its less cluttered and the overstrike details come through a bit sharper, in my opinion.

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