RW Julian Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 You lost my point. I stated the following: BEFORE BUYING ANY RARE COIN DEMAND THIRD OPINION!!! Buy after you know the quality and authenticity of coins that you are about to buy. No matter what respectable organization provided this third opinion Russian GIM or NGC/PCGS. This theread is not about slabs, its about collectors carelessly buying expensive coins without getting third opinion. WCO Would you like a photo of a fake Dassier rouble that got past one of the top two grading services? Or a 1798 5 roubles, even worse? In the U.S. field the Omega $20s have been slabbed, a point that can be confirmed by Rittenhouse. I personally prefer buying raw coins and have only a few slabs where it was the sole way to obtain a given piece. It is often the case that both the seller and the buyer are very well informed and do not need a third opinion. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Would you like a photo of a fake Dassier rouble that got past one of the top two grading services? Or a 1798 5 roubles, even worse? In the U.S. field the Omega $20s have been slabbed, a point that can be confirmed by Rittenhouse. I personally prefer buying raw coins and have only a few slabs where it was the sole way to obtain a given piece. It is often the case that both the seller and the buyer are very well informed and do not need a third opinion. RWJ RWJ, I myself also know some cases when fake coins were slabbed and even passed the Russian State Historical museum experts. We are not talking about those cases, they are more exceptions than common occurrences. On average 99% of all fakes are being sold without slabs. Slabs allow to eliminate most of the fakes. This is about authenticity. And about grading of coins, you would be amazed how little average collector of Russian coins in Russia know about grading of coins. I could give you indefinite examples of it from Russian forums and major Russian auctions to prove otherwise to your statement that "... both the seller and the buyer are very well informed and do not need a third opinion", but I think you understand it yourself. Maya, for example, (the starter of this thread) was very wise to ask opinion of this forum, she learned that the coins she was about to buy were with problems (harsh cleaning) and therefore decided to stay on the sidelines. It was her design based on full information available for both coins. So I guess even this thread proves that third opinion helps quite often. Same may be said about Dassier Ruble, I do not think that grivna1726 would buy it if third party opinion would be "XF details, cleaned, corroded". ...I personally prefer buying raw coins and have only a few slabs where it was the sole way to obtain a given piece. ... RWJ, very few people are so well prepared as you are and have sufficient databases of pictures of coins and references, etc. that they themselves are experts on the subject and do not need any independent opinion (still need it in some cases). But again it is rather an exception. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 RWJ, I myself also know some cases when fake coins were slabbed and even passed the Russian State Historical museum experts. We are not talking about those cases, they are more exceptions than common occurrences. On average 99% of all fakes are being sold without slabs. Slabs allow to eliminate most of the fakes. This is about authenticity. And about grading of coins, you would be amazed how little average collector of Russian coins in Russia know about grading of coins. I could give you indefinite examples of it from Russian forums and major Russian auctions to prove otherwise to your statement that "... both the seller and the buyer are very well informed and do not need a third opinion", but I think you understand it yourself. Maya, for example, (the starter of this thread) was very wise to ask opinion of this forum, she learned that the coins she was about to buy were with problems (harsh cleaning) and therefore decided to stay on the sidelines. It was her design based on full information available for both coins. So I guess even this thread proves that third opinion helps quite often. Same may be said about Dassier Ruble, I do not think that grivna1726 would buy it if third party opinion would be "XF details, cleaned, corroded". RWJ, very few people are so well prepared as you are and have sufficient databases of pictures of coins and references, etc. that they themselves are experts on the subject and do not need any independent opinion (still need it in some cases). But again it is rather an exception. WCO Looking at a picture and deciding that a given coin is corroded or cleaned is not quite the same as having it in hand; if a coin is photographed from different angles it can appear to be totally different coins. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Looking at a picture and deciding that a given coin is corroded or cleaned is not quite the same as having it in hand; if a coin is photographed from different angles it can appear to be totally different coins. RWJ Agreed that pictures may be deceptive and necessary to hold coin in hands to grade and authenticate it. Only sometimes possible to say something about state of preservation of a coin and its authenticity based on pictures. However, owner confirmed that there is corrosion on it. Is not your point to be another reason to get a third party opinion? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 I did not ask because I care. I asked because I thought that you purchased it a long ago. Now I see that it was exactly the case. In 1991 grading companies were in their childhood. It is obvious that in 1991 very few people even knew about getting independent opinion on authenticity and grade, etc... WCO That is just not accurate. Here is a photo certificate issued by the original ANACS (back when it was run by the ANA) in 1984. ANACS offered an authentication service (pioneered by Virgil Hancock) for both US and world coins (and optional grading for US coins only). That is why the certificate says "Grade: N/A". The ANACS service was very well known among collectors and such certificates were quite common in coin auctions in the US. This photo certificate was issued for my grivna plate (this coin is the inspiration for my "grivna1726" web identity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 ANACS certified its first coin as genuine on June 15, 1972 http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/History.aspx Now I see that it took 19 years for ANACS to reach its childhood. Very impressive start. People are developing much faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 That is just not accurate. Here is a photo certificate issued by the original ANACS (back when it was run by the ANA) in 1984. ANACS offered an authentication service (pioneered by Virgil Hancock) for both US and world coins (and optional grading for US coins only). That is why the certificate says "Grade: N/A". The ANACS service was very well known among collectors and such certificates were quite common in coin auctions in the US. This photo certificate was issued for my grivna plate (this coin is the inspiration for my "grivna1726" web identity). ... What exactly is not accurate? That by 1991 only a small fraction of coins was graded by all grading services combined comparable to millions and millions of coins graded today? I think many people would agree that by 1991 were early stages of development of businesses of Grading services. ANACS was the first grading company ever, here is a link if anyone is interested to read about it: http://lynncoins.com/about-anacs.htm. For example, PCGS was founded in 1981 and NGC was founded in 1987. However, I see that you do care to get a third party opinion, otherwise you would just put that nice ANACS certificate of your plate 10 Kopecks into garbage. So why do you keep it, is it because ANACS opinion matters? There must be some reason you keep it. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 I do not think that grivna1726 would buy it if third party opinion would be "XF details, cleaned, corroded". That is a mistaken assumption on your part. If I like a coin and I think the price is fair and I need it for my collection, then I will buy it. I know how to grade and I can think for myself. I do not need to have some third party do my thinking for me, because I can think and make decisions on my own. In more obscure areas, like the plate money, where dangerous counterfeits are so common, then authentication (NOT grading) becomes of interest. Knowing a series means knowing how the coins are found. There is no point in demanding "MS-67" as minimum standard for a coin if it is unknown above VF. 18th century roubles are seldom found in choice original toned UNC and are often plagued by weak strikes, ugly flan flaws, low grade and other flaws. A choice coin might be one which has a sharp strike on a solid flan but has been lightly cleaned in the past and has a small scratch. You have to be a bit forgiving because the coins were not perfect when they were made. Trying to collect 18th century Russian coins the same way people collect Morgan dollars is guaranteed to be a futile and frustrating endeavor for anyone who attempts it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 However, owner confirmed that there is corrosion on it. Where? Here? Q: Hi! Looks like it is a cleaned and corroded coin. Am I right? Thanks. Apr-28-07 A: No, you are wrong. Where do you see corrsion or cleaning? Also, think about your question: how can the same coin be both corroded and cleaned (unless it was harsh cleaing which did not completely removed harsh corrosion, like on improperly stored 200+ y.o. coppers)??? -Andrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 >> I do not think that grivna1726 would buy it if third party opinion would be "XF details, cleaned, corroded". That is a mistaken assumption on your part. If I like a coin and I think the price is fair and I need it for my collection, then I will buy it. ... Well, may be I was mistaken and you enjoy overpaying for "no grade" coins. But again would you pay the same price for "XF details, cleaned, corroded" and for "choice XF, the finest we have seen..."? So knowing the grade really helps to determine the reasonable value of a coin. Everyone decides there of course how much he wants to pay for a certain coin, but is not it better to know what you are about to buy? ...I know how to grade and I can think for myself. ... I can think and make decisions on my own. ... Sure you are a responsible buyer and can decide on your own where to spend your money, no doubt. Would you please explain how you learned to grade coins? Were you taking any hands on seminars? Just interested. ... Knowing a series means knowing how the coins are found. There is no point in demanding "MS-67" as minimum standard for a coin if it is unknown above VF. 18th century roubles are seldom found in choice original toned UNC and are often plagued by weak strikes, ugly flan flaws, low grade and other flaws. A choice coin might be one which has a sharp strike on a solid flan but has been lightly cleaned in the past and has a small scratch. You have to be a bit forgiving because the coins were not perfect when they were made. Trying to collect 18th century Russian coins the same way people collect Morgan dollars is guaranteed to be a futile and frustrating endeavor for anyone who attempts it. ... I agree, but how all this is related to our discussion? Or do you think that people need third party opinion on only MS-67 coins? How about great rarities that are in junky condition, even in that condition most people would want to do authenticity check? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Where? Here? Q: Hi! Looks like it is a cleaned and corroded coin. Am I right? Thanks. Apr-28-07 A: No, you are wrong. Where do you see corrsion or cleaning? Also, think about your question: how can the same coin be both corroded and cleaned (unless it was harsh cleaing which did not completely removed harsh corrosion, like on improperly stored 200+ y.o. coppers)??? -Andrey. Cheburgen, I will let grivna1726 answer you. Pls. read page 2 of this thread. ...I have never submitted it for grading, so you might be right about the "no grade". ... True, there is some corrosion on reverse. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 >> I do not think that grivna1726 would buy it if third party opinion would be "XF details, cleaned, corroded". Well, may be I was mistaken and you enjoy overpaying for "no grade" coins. But again would you pay the same price for "XF details, cleaned, corroded" and for "choice XF, the finest we have seen..."? So knowing the grade really helps to determine the reasonable value of a coin. Everyone decides there of course how much he wants to pay for a certain coin, but is not it better to know what you are about to buy? Sure you are a responsible buyer and can decide on your own where to spend your money, no doubt. Would you please explain how you learned to grade coins? Were you taking any hands on seminars? Just interested. I agree, but how all this is related to our discussion? Or do you think that people need third party opinion on only MS-67 coins? How about great rarities that are in junky condition, even in that condition most people would want to do authenticity check? WCO *plonk* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Where? Here? Q: Hi! Looks like it is a cleaned and corroded coin. Am I right? Thanks. Apr-28-07 A: No, you are wrong. Where do you see corrsion or cleaning? Also, think about your question: how can the same coin be both corroded and cleaned (unless it was harsh cleaing which did not completely removed harsh corrosion, like on improperly stored 200+ y.o. coppers)??? -Andrey. Interesting seller's reply ! Theory, theory, NO FACTS here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Interesting thread. I want to mention Grivna1726's merit: while many expensive coins are traded frequently changing hands every 2 years or so, he is keeping these gems with excellent pedigree for decades in his collection thus ensuring and safeguarding the pedigree and making any third party authentication and grading for his coins really unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Oh for the love of everyone's keyboard, this thread should be locked as it's going nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.