Two Roubles; Catherine II & Nicholas I

[grivna1726]

This seems to be true in part but I bought some Farouk coins (mostly copper) from James Randall

in 1955 and they were not cleaned, including one very nicely toned proof three kopecks of 1903.

 

RWJ

 

 

Farouk's was a massive collection. Fortunately, he apparently did not have sufficient time to "improve" everything he had.

 

Congratulations on having obtained such things at a time when they were not fully appreciated. Looking back over coin lists from that era, it is astonishing to see such treasures offered for such trivial sums.

[RW Julian]

To RW Julian,

Did Mr. James Randall purchases and sell lot's of Russian copper coins on the Auctions or it was privet treaty . I collect Auction catalogs ,books , references, of Russian collections.

Thank You.

Randall, I believe, bought his coins in person at Cairo and not through an agent. He issued Fixed Price Lists

and I bought the coins from one of those lists.

 

RWJ

[Maya]

Coming back to sellers notifying buyers of the condition of a coin, flying_bostonian did reply to my question about the Catherine II rouble. I quote verbatim:

 

"I don't see any signs of cleaning, but I don't see much of a 250 old dirt/rust eather.

So, it looks like it was cleaned, but I presume it was done in a proper, professional way. My experiece (from looking at this coin) tells me that most likely an ultrasound + plain water was used. -Andrey."

 

(no editing on my part)

[WCO]

Coming back to sellers notifying buyers of the condition of a coin, flying_bostonian did reply to my question about the Catherine II rouble. I quote verbatim:

 

"I don't see any signs of cleaning, but I don't see much of a 250 old dirt/rust eather.

So, it looks like it was cleaned, but I presume it was done in a proper, professional way. My experiece (from looking at this coin) tells me that most likely an ultrasound + plain water was used. -Andrey."

 

(no editing on my part)

 

The guy "forgot" that he cleaned it with MS-70 liquid himself and after toning was gone the ugly hairlines from previous cleaning surfaced up.

 

WCO

[Oldman]

The guy "forgot" that he cleaned it with MS-70 liquid himself and after toning was gone the ugly hairlines from previous cleaning surfaced up.

 

WCO

As you said before, WCO, he knows exactly what he's doing

[GHV]

Coming back to sellers notifying buyers of the condition of a coin, flying_bostonian did reply to my question about the Catherine II rouble. I quote verbatim:

 

"I don't see any signs of cleaning, but I don't see much of a 250 old dirt/rust eather.

So, it looks like it was cleaned, but I presume it was done in a proper, professional way. My experiece (from looking at this coin) tells me that most likely an ultrasound + plain water was used. -Andrey."

 

(no editing on my part)

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[RARENUM]

Randall, I believe, bought his coins in person at Cairo and not through an agent. He issued Fixed Price Listsand I bought the coins from one of those lists. RWJ

Thank You

[Cheburgen]

Yeeeeeeeeeees!

 

That its all about!

 

And if somehow seller "forgot" to add description about condition, probably will be NICE to answer to the question about it. And Seller MUST to answer, there is no EXCUSES (like: Busy, sleeping, flying, cooking etc...)

 

Do you collect russian coins or you just sell them?

[grivna1726]

I have added a new thread to the Russian virtual coin museum section showing some Dassier roubles.

 

The thread can be found at this link.

[IgorS]

You collect what you want and what you pleased. I am not trying to persuade you to some other direction.

I only "vote" that when you buy a coin, you know EXACTLY what you are buying, authentic or not, cleaned or not, damaged or not, "no grade" or a beauty and only AFTER THAT you make your design "with your eyes opened". And if you enjoy collecting damaged Dassier Rubles - I am fine with it too. I only amazed that you did care to learn that this coin has a pedigree but did not care to learn condition of coin that you purchased. Looks weird.

 

Regards,

WCO

 

Here is a description of this Dassier rouble from World Wide Coins of California auction 8 (1985) - Well struck XF. The finest we have seen.

 

It seems that slab junkies are loosing touch with reality. Well, let me rephrase that - we are living in parallel universes from each other. There is a big difference between a numismatist, a coin collector and a coin accumulator

[Timofei]

Here is a description of this Dassier rouble from World Wide Coins of California auction 8 (1985) - Well struck XF. The finest we have seen.

 

It seems that slab junkies are loosing touch with reality. Well, let me rephrase that - we are living in parallel universes from each other. There is a big difference between a numismatist, a coin collector and a coin accumulator

 

 

I am sure that there will be a long row of those willing to buy this coin (myself included) no matter if it is slabbed or not, "no grade" or "AU-5X". But I think that if Grivna did not mention pedigree - many would even doubt that the coin is original (not because of die comparison or anything else, but because $30000+ coin is is not slabbed)

[WCO]

Here is a description of this Dassier rouble from World Wide Coins of California auction 8 (1985) - Well struck XF. The finest we have seen.

 

It seems that slab junkies are loosing touch with reality. Well, let me rephrase that - we are living in parallel universes from each other. There is a big difference between a numismatist, a coin collector and a coin accumulator

 

I do not know people, but for me it looks as difference between "collector" and "accumulator" the same as "someone with no ability to think who acts on brainless desires to own a ririty" and someone who can "keep his urges to buy a junky rarity under control".

 

At the time of 1985 sale it was what, the second coin of this kind sold by WWC? The finest out of two?

 

Mr. Elmen have very good abilities to read "between lines" and in almost every catalogue he gives fine examples of how one should understand written numismatic text. One of his examples is as follows. If someone states that a coin is "...unlisted in catalogs", it means "... I do not have the right books". If to use the same principles introduced by Mr. Elmen how would one translate his own text about a coin: "... The finest we have seen". For me it reads "... I used to see so little, anything would be the finest...". The worst part "...the finest we have seen" is just a problem coin.

 

Obviously, grade of that coin was stated incorrectly, coin has corrosion. For me over "... Well struck XF. The finest we have seen" Ruble I would prefer another coin from his sale 50, Lot 487 (before auction XIV) with this description: "Choice lustrous VF+". It looks as honest VF and I would prefer this over corroded and problem coin with XF details. And by the way, if you present the two coins with NGC labels one will be with no slab (or NCS slab) and description on the label "XF details, cleaned, corroded" and another in NGC VF-30 holder the choice will be MUCH MORE OBVIOUS. So who is "losing touch with reality"?

 

regards,

WCO

[grivna1726]

This is a very rare coin in any condition. I cannot recall ever seeing another one.

 

It appears to be missing from both the Brekke collection and the 1932 Hess sale 210 ("Dubletten Russischer Museen").

 

That is an amazing coin of great rarity! (even if it isn't in a slab! )

 

I would like to add that your 1718-НДЗ kopek is also missing from the massive Klingert collection sold by Adolph Hess in 1910!

[grivna1726]

So who is "losing touch with reality"?

 

regards,

WCO

 

I think I am beginning to understand why at least one other board member has decided to place you in his kill file.

 

BTW, the 1729 ducat I am currently using as my avatar (no ribbon variety) is not in a slab either (it's in a cardboard 2x2), so it is obviously also undesirable junk.

[WCO]

...

BTW, the 1729 ducat I am currently using as my avatar (no ribbon variety) is not in a slab either (it's in a cardboard 2x2), so it is obviously also undesirable junk.

 

You lost my point. I stated the following: BEFORE BUYING ANY RARE COIN DEMAND THIRD OPINION!!! Buy after you know the quality and authenticity of coins that you are about to buy. No matter what respectable organization provided this third opinion Russian GIM or NGC/PCGS. This theread is not about slabs, its about collectors carelessly buying expensive coins without getting third opinion.

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

You lost my point. I stated the following: BEFORE BUYING ANY RARE COIN DEMAND THIRD OPINION!!! Buy after you know the quality and authenticity of coins that you are about to buy. No matter what respectable organization provided this third opinion Russian GIM or NGC/PCGS. This theread is not about slabs, its about collectors carelessly buying expensive coins without getting third opinion.

 

WCO

 

Nonsense. I understand your point, but I'm not so sure that you do.

 

What you stated very clearly is this: "Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it..."

 

The 1729 ducat might reasonably be considered an "expensive coin".

 

As the scan shows, it "is not in a slab".

 

As you clearly stated, there must then be "something wrong with it".

 

Therefore, it is junk. Q.E.D.

[WCO]

Nonsense. I understand your point, but I'm not so sure that you do.

 

What you stated very clearly is this: "Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it..."

 

The 1729 ducat might reasonably be considered an "expensive coin".

 

As the scan shows, it "is not in a slab".

 

As you clearly stated, there must then be "something wrong with it".

 

Therefore, it is junk. Q.E.D.

 

If this seller (just like any seller specializing in slabs) is selling a coin without a "box" - it is no grade.

 

Error logic. That was about coins BEING SOLD, not just about any coin kept somewhere. I tend to agree with these statements above mine and Igors's. And you obviously disagree. May be you understand it when you start selling your collection? I wish you good luck then since you will be able to get way less money for your rare coins without third opinion on their authenticity and grade.

 

No matter what you think or I think, people VOTE WITH THEIR MONEY for problem free coins with third party opinion on their authenticity and grade over problem coins and/or never checked by independent experts.

 

WCO

[RARENUM]

I would like to add that your 1718-НДЗ kopek is also missing from the massive Klingert collection sold by Adolph Hess in 1910!

Thank You for update. I can find only one in GM collection, possible one in Museum (Moscow) and one in my collection. All together two confirm.

[grivna1726]

Error logic. That was about coins BEING SOLD, not just about any coin kept somewhere. I tend to agree with these statements above mine and Igors's. And you obviously disagree. May be you understand it when you start selling your collection? I wish you good luck then since you will be able to get way less money for your rare coins without third opinion on their authenticity and grade.

 

WCO

 

No. No error in logic. The coin was not in a slab when it was sold. Therefore, it is junk.

[grivna1726]

Thank You for update.

I can find only one in GM collection, possible one in Museum (Moscow) and one in my collection. All together two confirm.

 

I have not checked every reference I have, but the obvious ones all come up with the coin missing. Also, I cannot remember even seeing one of these (but maybe I've just forgotten?).

 

Whatever the case, it certainly seems to be an extremely rare coin. Maybe BKB knows more?

[WCO]

No. No error in logic. The coin was not in a slab when it was sold. Therefore, it is junk.

 

How long you keep ducat in your collection, also how it was advertised, pedigree, what auction it came from?

 

WCO

 

P.S. You already gave us example of how wise collector should never purchase a coin with your Dassier Ruble. You purchased a problem coin without independent opinion on its grade based on a wrong description that made you believe that the coin is much better than in reality is. I wish your second example is not the same "black crow".

[gxseries]

Guys, cool it down!

[grivna1726]

How long you keep ducat in your collection, also how it was advertised, pedigree, what auction it came from?

 

WCO

 

 

Not really your business, and you will no doubt find all sorts of imaginary things wrong with it, but here is your answer:

 

World-Wide Coins of California, Auction XIX, lot 552. June 1991.

 

Provenance is not known to me and the coin is not for sale.

[IgorS]

I do not know people, but for me it looks as difference between "collector" and "accumulator" the same as "someone with no ability to think who acts on brainless desires to own a ririty" and someone who can "keep his urges to buy a junky rarity under control".

 

IS IT BETTER TO BUY COMMON, OVERGRADED, FACELESS, UNIFORMED, BOXED COINS THAT DO NOT CARRY ANY POSITIVE EMOTIONS, BUT FOR THE FIRST DAY OF OWNING IT?

 

At the time of 1985 sale it was what, the second coin of this kind sold by WWC? The finest out of two?

 

IT CLEARLY SAYS "THE FINEST WE HAVE SEEN", NOT "THE FINEST WE HAVE SOLD"

 

Mr. Elmen have very good abilities to read "between lines" and in almost every catalogue he gives fine examples of how one should understand written numismatic text. One of his examples is as follows. If someone states that a coin is "...unlisted in catalogs", it means "... I do not have the right books". If to use the same principles introduced by Mr. Elmen how would one translate his own text about a coin: "... The finest we have seen". For me it reads "... I used to see so little, anything would be the finest...". The worst part "...the finest we have seen" is just a problem coin.

 

CAN YOU REALLY READ BETWEEN THE LINES?

 

Obviously, grade of that coin was stated incorrectly, coin has corrosion. For me over "... Well struck XF. The finest we have seen" Ruble I would prefer another coin from his sale 50, Lot 487 (before auction XIV) with this description: "Choice lustrous VF+". It looks as honest VF and I would prefer this over corroded and problem coin with XF details. And by the way, if you present the two coins with NGC labels one will be with no slab (or NCS slab) and description on the label "XF details, cleaned, corroded" and another in NGC VF-30 holder the choice will be MUCH MORE OBVIOUS. So who is "losing touch with reality"?

 

SPEAKING OF TOUCH. YOU SHOULD GET IN TOUCH WITH GRADING SERVICES AND OFFER TO BE A "POSTER BOY", IT MIGHT BE MORE FRUITFUL TO YOU THAN THESE DISCUSSIONS.

 

regards,

WCO

 

P.S. I am not planning to respond, so save it.

[WCO]

Not really your business, and you will no doubt find all sorts of imaginary things wrong with it, but here is your answer:

 

World-Wide Coins of California, Auction XIX, lot 552. June 1991.

 

Provenance is not known to me and the coin is not for sale.

 

I did not ask because I care. I asked because I thought that you purchased it a long ago. Now I see that it was exactly the case. In 1991 grading companies were in their childhood. It is obvious that in 1991 very few people even knew about getting independent opinion on authenticity and grade, etc...

 

WCO