GHV Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 To add to what WCO is saying about the seller: Not only is he selling the coins without revealing that they are harshly cleaned, he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble. Probably "busy" to answer on e-mails......................... and because there is only one answer could be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 To add to what WCO is saying about the seller: Not only is he selling the coins without revealing that they are harshly cleaned, he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble. <he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble. When you start to sell so much coins as he does, you'll be very busy to answer questions like: "what is the BIN?", "How much is shipping to China?", "Is this coin real?", "It's too expensive. I saw that the same coin was sold for $800, why are you selling it for $1600". Well, at least I have the answer for the last question. WHY YOU DID NOT BUY IT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 It is almost no way to send the coins, e.g. from Germany to the US for grading - it would be risky, expensive and not worth. If the coin is properly insured and there is a legal way to send this coin to the US, WHAT IS THE RISK? Expensive? 20-40$? Not worth? Yes, of course. Send me completely killed coin which is worth 10$ and spend 40$ for its shipping and I'll spend another 50$ for its grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Cherburgen, perhaps you don't know the postage system in Germany but recently I lost three packages from Germany straight in a row, all registered. Great service eh? It does make me understand Kisenish's situation. Kisenish there are some nice coins that I would be interested but the recent postage system in Germany has totally disgusted me. Sorry Perhaps it would be nice if any of the major slabbing companies actually do consider setting up headquarters overseas like in the UK, Singapore, Australia, (all English speaking countries throughout the world) and we don't have to send them all to the US, taking longer time and such. WCO might be right though, back in 1995 Australia did have their slabbing company but they started out too early and it broke down later. The only good reason why slabbing companies do exist is to detect problematic coins especially with the huge number of counterfeits popping out daily. Sometimes if you ask me to bid on ebay, it does get a bit frightening especially with the ones coming from Belarus, Ukraine and China. It might be easy but what if an evil seller registers in the US? Unless there is high resolution photograph, you can't expect all sellers to provide such photos as most probably only a good fraction of them only know how to do so. Indeed I would be much happier if I can hold the coins in my own hand, check edges etc but buying online? Tell me what is the best way that solves both counterfeits, problematic etc AND the seller being able to provide high resolution pictures. Of course the most optinum solution to this is that a dealer knows how to or hire professional photographers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Cherburgen, perhaps you don't know the postage system in Germany but recently I lost three packages from Germany straight in a row, all registered. Great service eh? Did you send them yourself? Or you were the buyer? Ohhh... I see this "I lost three packages from Germany", well, then did you get any insurance compensation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Did you send them yourself? Or you were the buyer? Ohhh... I see this "I lost three packages from Germany", well, then did you get any insurance compensation? I can add this information: Unlike to sending from Germany to Europe countries, when you pay 1 Euro for every 100 Euro insurance (possible up to several thousands), there is no insured shipping available to USA, Canada and Israel. Usually sellers send the packages to those countries as a registered mail on the buyer's risk. None of the packages I sent this way have been lost but it is always a risk. DHL might do this job, but it has not a good reputation either, since many packages from them have been lost and they don't want to give compensation when they get to know about the content of the package (coins) You can read this sad disclaimer about DHL in every offer of Mr. Augsburger (augsburger_de). This is why I would not sleep if I send coins for several thousands of euros on a risky way... The best thing would be the NGC headquartier in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Kisenish there are some nice coins that I would be interested but the recent postage system in Germany has totally disgusted me. Sorry Hi gxseries, for you I have a good news: I have just checked the post information - like sending to Europe, it is also possible to send the coins to Australia INSURED (1 Euro for each 100 Euro insurance, up to 2944 Euro) it is not a problem and there is no risk, since it's allowed and even required to send the coins in insured letters. http://www.deutschepost.de//mlm.html/dpag/...land_010306.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it...WCO WCO, Here is a coin that some people might classify as "expensive". It is not in a slab. What is wrong with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 WCO, Here is a coin that some people might classify as "expensive". It is not in a slab. What is wrong with it? What are you trying to say? That rare and expensive coins can't be a "no grade" coins? Or that people do collect problem coins, especially rare when they unable to find a better specimen and/or have insufficient financial abilities to buy a better quality coin? Your Dassier Ruble, you are not looking for opinion since you already know about this coin. What is it then? All I said that it is only fair to provide a warning when someone sells a problem coin, especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry. All this may be not that obvious even if you look at pictures so many people fallen victims of dishonest sellers and overpaid a lot just to find out later that they purchased a piece of junk, very expensive may be, but junk. regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 What are you trying to say? I am saying that you made a sweeping, general statement that is not correct. If I said that all crows are black, you would only have to produce one white crow to disprove my statement. The Dassier is my white crow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 I am saying that you made a sweeping, general statement that is not correct. If I said that all crows are black, you would only have to produce one white crow to disprove my statement. The Dassier is my white crow. This was my statement: "Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it..." I did not say ALL people, obviously you are one who does not realize... So I did not say "all crows are black", only that many and number is growing ... I have to disappoint you about your Dassier Ruble. Your "crow" is black too if you take a closer look. Your Dassier Ruble is a "no grade" coin. It's been polished (harshly cleaned) and has some corrosion on reverse. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 All I said that it is only fair to provide a warning when someone sells a problem coin, especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry. All this may be not that obvious even if you look at pictures so many people fallen victims of dishonest sellers and overpaid a lot just to find out later that they purchased a piece of junk, very expensive may be, but junk. regards, WCO ToWCO "Especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry" Bring down the price of the coins. I personally don’t care if coin was clean. Almost 90%-80% Russian coins of 18th century were cleaned and slabed by Grading companies… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 I have to disapoint you then. Your "crow" is black too. Your Dassier Ruble is a "no grade" coin. I have never submitted it for grading, so you might be right about the "no grade". It's been polished (harshly cleaned) Nonsense. I know what harsh cleaning looks like and this coin has no hairlines, nor has it been polished (although it has probably been dipped many years ago). and has corrosion on reverse. But it was good try though. WCO True, there is some corrosion on reverse. The coin is not perfect, but you will have a hard time to find a better one. 18th century roubles seldom ever turn up in mint condition. For comparison, here is lot 122 from MiM auction 43. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 ToWCO "Especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry" Bring down the price of the coins. I personally doesn’t care if coin was cleand.Almost 90%-80% Russian coins of 18th century was cleaned and slabed by Grading companies… You do not care, that's your problem. I wish you not to be disappointed when you pay a lot for what you thought would be a super nice coin and later on found out that there was mount removed, hole professionally repaired, tooling and all this was hidden by extensive polishing. Since you don't care, I guess you will be happy with your purchase anyway. Regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 ...Nonsense. I know what harsh cleaning looks like and this coin has no hairlines, nor has it been polished (although it has probably been dipped many years ago). True, there is some corrosion on reverse. ... Well, high resolution picture of fields after the head will answer about cleaning. Can you do that? For now I only see oval darker area in fields after the head that usually means there was cleaning done. So I am 95% sure about cleaning, just it was a long ago. And if I to buy a Dassier Ruble I would buy a MiM's example for double the money rather than yours. I myself do not like "no grade" coins. And I like even less when a seller "conveniently" forgets to mention problems in the description or sells cleaned Fine coin as Choice BU. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 You do not care, that's your problem. I wish you not to be disappointed when you pay a lot for what you thought would be a super nice coin and later on found out that there was mount removed, hole professionally repaired, tooling and all this was hidden by extensive polishing. Since you don't care, I guess you will be happy with your purchase anyway. Regards, WCO WCO, I have seen the coins posted here by Rarenum. I don't know him and have never met him, but the coins he has shown tell me that he is a sophisticated and knowledgeable collector. I don't think he is a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 WCO,I have seen the coins posted here by Rarenum. I don't know him and have never met him, but the coins he has shown tell me that he is a sophisticated and knowledgeable collector. I don't think he is a fool. I never said that he or someone else is a fool, you did. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 I have never submitted it for grading, so you might be right about the "no grade".Nonsense. I know what harsh cleaning looks like and this coin has no hairlines, nor has it been polished (although it has probably been dipped many years ago).True, there is some corrosion on reverse.The coin is not perfect, but you will have a hard time to find a better one. 18th century roubles seldom ever turn up in mint condition.Coin with corrosion and was cleaned. But it is great coin for collection (one year type).I was trying several times buying Dassier on the auctions then the price was above $1000.00, all the times some body place highest bid.No Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHV Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 ToWCO "Especially cleaned, with rim problems, tooling and mounts removed or ex-jewelry" Bring down the price of the coins. I personally don’t care if coin was clean. Almost 90%-80% Russian coins of 18th century were cleaned and slabed by Grading companies… I`m sorry but Cleaned coins is SALVAGE. So many people likes SALVAGES It's like some people likes to drive salvage Mersedes than brand new Honda. And they relise that Salvage Mersedes which price originaly 75k worth no more than 20k, and brand new Honda has the same 20k price. I prefer Honda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 I`m sorry but Cleaned coins is SALVAGE. So many people likes SALVAGES It's like some people likes to drive salvage Mersedes than brand new Honda. And they relise that Salvage Mersedes which price originaly 75k worth no more than 20k, and brand new Honda has the same 20k price. I prefer Honda In reality it is even worse. Those who likes Mercedes paid $75K for old junky Mercedes (instead of $20K what it actually worth) because seller "forgot" to mention in the description that it is old, after 2 accidents and salvaged after being underwater in Florida after hurricane. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 I`m sorry but Cleaned coins is SALVAGE. So many people likes SALVAGES It's like some people likes to drive salvage Mersedes than brand new Honda. And they relise that Salvage Mersedes which price originaly 75k worth no more than 20k, and brand new Honda has the same 20k price. I prefer Honda 1. I’m sorry for question .How many years you collect Russian coins? To named salvage cleaned coin. 2. Can You tell me haw mach cost Mercedes of 1930's-salvage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHV Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 In reality it is even worse. Those who likes Mercedes paid $75K for old junky Mercedes (instead of $20K what it actually worth) because seller "forgot" to mention in the description that it is old, after 2 accidents and salvaged after being underwater in Florida after hurricane. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHV Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 1. I’m sorry for question .How many years you collect Russian coins? To named salvage cleaned coin.2. Can You tell me haw mach cost Mercedes of 1930's-salvage? 1. much enough to make that decision. 2. Hmm, you know I don't know how much cost Mers 1930's, but I can guess how much cost Mers of 1800 But if be serious, let's compair price for Mersedes SALVAGE of 1930 and ORIGINAL Mers for 1930. got it? Same is RUBLE os 1757 SLABBED AND ORIGINALto compair with ROUBLE SALVAGE of 1757 or whatever date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 Well, high resolution picture of fields after the head will answer about cleaning. Can you do that? Yes, of course I can. I will need get and return the coin from the bank vault, then upload high resolution scan. For now I only see oval darker area in fields after the head that usually means there was cleaning done. So I am 95% sure about cleaning, just it was a long ago. And if I to buy a Dassier Ruble I would buy a MiM's example for double the money rather than yours. You are welcome to spend your money as you wish. My coin is not for sale. I myself do not like "no grade" coins. And I like even less when a seller "conveniently" forgets to mention problems in the description or sells cleaned Fine coin as Choice BU. WCO Your tastes are your tastes. They differ from mine. I care more about pleasing myself and my own collecting interests than I care about what some slabber (who probably knows a lot less about Russian coins than I do) says or thinks. However, I am quite confident that (slabbed or not) there will be many people who will be thrilled to buy my coin (when the day comes that I decide to sell), even if you are not one of them. By the way, this coin which you find so unattractive was one of a handful of coins which I purchased from Randolph Zander's personal crown collection. Zander bought it (for his own collection) in 1969 from former dealer Hal Rosenberg and held onto it (after earlier selling off the bulk of his Russian collection) until I purchased it from him in 1985. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted April 27, 2007 Report Share Posted April 27, 2007 1. much enough to make that decision.2. Hmm, you know I don't know how much cost Mers 1930's, but I can guess how much cost Mers of 1800 But if be serious, let's compair price for Mersedes SALVAGE of 1930 and ORIGINAL Mers for 1930. got it? Same is RUBLE os 1757 SLABBED AND ORIGINALto compair with ROUBLE SALVAGE of 1757 or whatever date. Why you add Memorial Ruble-"Salvage" to your profile? I would say nice coin, was cleaned before, now has nice light toning, possible gradable .One again I didn’t call your coin-"Salvage”, you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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