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Two Roubles; Catherine II & Nicholas I


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These two roubles, Catherine II 1763 and Nicholas I 1859, are on eBay now. What do you all think of them? Do you think they are real?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

Both links point to the same auction.

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If this seller (just like any seller specializing in slabs) is selling a coin without a "box" - it is no grade.

 

 

Not every coin worth slabbing. For XF/AU or lower grade and common cheap coins there are just no reasons to slab since slabbing worth money. But better coins like those two Rubles should be slabbed of course. Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it I guess dealers that are not specializing in slabbed coins will lose their business to those who do sell slabs. And if dealers who are "specializing in slabs" will sell a harshly cleaned coin such as 1763 Ruble without a warning that coin is "harshly cleaned", they will definitely lose their reputation since there are less and less buyers who does not understand what is being sold.

 

WCO

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Not every coin worth slabbing. For XF/AU or lower grade and common cheap coins there are just no reasons to slab since slabbing worth money. But better coins like those two Rubles should be slabbed of course. Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it I guess dealers that are not specializing in slabbed coins will lose their business to those who do sell slabs. And if dealers who are "specializing in slabs" will sell a harshly cleaned coin such as 1763 Ruble without a warning that coin is "harshly cleaned", they will definitely lose their reputation since there are less and less buyers who does not understand what is being sold.

 

WCO

 

I tend to somewhat disagree with WCO.

1. Not everyone loves slabs. Look at the WWCC auctions. The auctioneer is a very respected dealer but never sells slabs; and what is interesting - he still has ENOUGH clients !

2. Russian coins of XVIII century in most cases are slabbed poorly by all grading companies. Only seldom do they realize that weak strikes, flan flaw , etc. are not the coin's problem but rather exceptions of the production.

3. This particular seller does really great job advertising his pretty ... mediocre stuff on EBay. He makes nice pictures, nice description , etc. However, to say honestly, I have not seen a single really scarce coin in his listing. So, here, I completely agree with IgorS - the seller slabs EVERYTHING. If it is not slabbed - it is a problem coin which does not really mean it is a very bad coin.

 

As always,

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I tend to somewhat disagree with WCO.

1. Not everyone loves slabs. ....

 

And where I said that everyone loves slabs? :ninja:

 

... Look at the WWCC auctions. The auctioneer is a very respected dealer but never sells slabs; and what is interesting - he still has ENOUGH clients !

...

 

Mr. Elmen earned his reputation and clients, he had over 50 auctions and decades in business. He sold many important collections and single coins. Collection of Brekke is one of them. But once he retires who else will be selling unslabbed coins? He does his business in old fashioned ways, black and white catalogues, no internet web-site, mail-bid only... this is not how modern businesses operate and find clients.

 

...

2. Russian coins of XVIII century in most cases are slabbed poorly by all grading companies. Only seldom do they realize that weak strikes, flan flaw , etc. are not the coin's problem but rather exceptions of the production.

....

 

Coins are graded by comparisons not to just any coin, but to SIMILAR COINS IN THE SAME SERIES. So if there are crudely made (weak strikes, flan flaws... ) early coins they can be graded very high ONLY if there are no choice made coins in the same series (sharply struck, no flan flaws or laminations...). And since in most cases there are coins without laminations, flaws or without weak strikes then why worse looking coins should be graded higher? After all, weakness in strike, flan flaws and laminations are not pretty.

 

Best regards,

WCO

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1. Not everyone loves slabs. Look at the WWCC auctions. The auctioneer is a very respected dealer but never sells slabs; and what is interesting - he still has ENOUGH clients !

[...snip...]

What is WWCC's address, please? Maybe he is about to get some new clients! :ninja:

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What is WWCC's address, please? Maybe he is about to get some new clients!

 

World-Wide Coins of California

P.O. Box 3684

Santa Rosa, CA 95402

 

elmen@sonic.net

 

His next auction is scheduled for May 17, 2007. The catalogues are just out.

 

RWJ

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World-Wide Coins of California

P.O. Box 3684

Santa Rosa, CA 95402

 

elmen@sonic.net

 

His next auction is scheduled for May 17, 2007. The catalogues are just out.

 

RWJ

To tell honestly....This particular sale ( I believe it is #51) is not....very exciting . Just regular stuff , IMHO.

 

Regards from

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If this seller (just like any seller specializing in slabs) is selling a coin without a "box" - it is no grade.

 

I wonder if the coins are on consignment to this seller from someone else. Most other pictures seem to be in color, not black and white, which causes me to wonder if the seller took these pictures, or if he/she is just using pictures supplied by someone else (the owner?).

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Not every coin worth slabbing. For XF/AU or lower grade and common cheap coins there are just no reasons to slab since slabbing worth money. But better coins like those two Rubles should be slabbed of course. Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it I guess dealers that are not specializing in slabbed coins will lose their business to those who do sell slabs. And if dealers who are "specializing in slabs" will sell a harshly cleaned coin such as 1763 Ruble without a warning that coin is "harshly cleaned", they will definitely lose their reputation since there are less and less buyers who does not understand what is being sold.

 

WCO

 

Looks like people more carring about final high selling price than keep reputation or true seller. :ninja:

Of course this point sucks. But most buyers will understand that where is the true.

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But better coins like those two Rubles should be slabbed of course. Since more people now realize that if expensive coin is not in a slab there is something wrong with it I guess dealers that are not specializing in slabbed coins will lose their business to those who do sell slabs.

WCO

 

I would like to make a correction to this point: it is valid ONLY for the US and, maybe, Canada, and not valid for Europe. It is almost no way to send the coins, e.g. from Germany to the US for grading - it would be risky, expensive and not worth. This is reflected in the point that most of the expensive coins are slabbed on eBay USA and I can't remember seeing ANY slabbed coin on eBay Germany.

 

This disproportion makes angry many dealers watching how, e.g., this particular seller sells ordinary garbage for a lot of money, since it is "slabbed" :ninja: How stupid could people be if they fall onto such a cheap trick??? This is true - "Buy the coin, NOT a slab". In Europe slabs are not popular since you can't feel the coin, you can't prove the edge, you can't weight it and many other things you can't do. If we consider a huge number of slabbed fakes, we see that slabs harm more that they bring. This "invention" is fully discredited now.

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I would like to make a correction to this point: it is valid ONLY for the US and, maybe, Canada, and not valid for Europe. It is almost no way to send the coins, e.g. from Germany to the US for grading - it would be risky, expensive and not worth. This is reflected in the point that most of the expensive coins are slabbed on eBay USA and I can't remember seeing ANY slabbed coin on eBay Germany.

 

This disproportion makes angry many dealers watching how, e.g., this particular seller sells ordinary garbage for a lot of money, since it is "slabbed" :ninja: How stupid could people be if they fall onto such a cheap trick??? This is true - "Buy the coin, NOT a slab". In Europe slabs are not popular since you can't feel the coin, you can't prove the edge, you can't weight it and many other things you can't do. If we consider a huge number of slabbed fakes, we see that slabs harm more that they bring. This "invention" is fully discredited now.

 

Oh no ! Not again..Please !

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I would like to make a correction to this point: it is valid ONLY for the US and, maybe, Canada, and not valid for Europe. It is almost no way to send the coins, e.g. from Germany to the US for grading - it would be risky, expensive and not worth. This is reflected in the point that most of the expensive coins are slabbed on eBay USA and I can't remember seeing ANY slabbed coin on eBay Germany.

 

This disproportion makes angry many dealers watching how, e.g., this particular seller sells ordinary garbage for a lot of money, since it is "slabbed" :ninja: How stupid could people be if they fall onto such a cheap trick??? This is true - "Buy the coin, NOT a slab". In Europe slabs are not popular since you can't feel the coin, you can't prove the edge, you can't weight it and many other things you can't do. If we consider a huge number of slabbed fakes, we see that slabs harm more that they bring. This "invention" is fully discredited now.

 

It soon will be valid for entire world. If you don't know Italian grading company does grading and authentication of Italian coins, they are sealed in soft plastic, like this one:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-LIRE-GOLD-1865-CERT...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

Canadian grading company ICCS puts coins into soft plastic too:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-TWENTY-FIVE-CENTS...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Those two grading companies are good, honest and respected the same good as NGC and PCGS in the U.S.

 

There are grading companies in some other European countries too. Grading services mushroom fast, many of them are junk, have no knowledge to authenticate and grade coins correctly, but others are OK. Some of them will survive and become leaders in their countries. It will be a good habit to authenticate and grade coins before buying them, just the same good habit as to care about your health or finances.

 

It is good that many dealers are crazy looking how some other competitors are making money while they stay aside and watch. But dealers already realized that they can slab coins too, and many already doing that like crazy. It's either you earn or someone else does.

 

And what slabs bring more, harm or usefulness? You think they bring more harm? ;) Have you ever seen large collections of harshly cleaned and then covered in PVC coins that could worth 100 times more if not that? Majority of collectors at large luck both culture and knowledge to deal with coins, they NEED professional help in conservation, authentication and grading of coins, the same as people need doctors when they are sick or lawyers when they have legal issues. Kisenish, you are trying to make profit by selling coins? OK, watch how flying_bostonian will be making one while you are angry will be selling THE SAME COINS for half. You are involved, so I understand your attitude towards the issue. There is only one advise, join the club, start slabbing your coins ASAP. ;)

 

WCO

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There is only one advise, join the club, start slabbing your coins ASAP. ;)

 

I'll try ;) The only thing what irritates me - I can't send the coins from Germany to the US insured. Well, DHL may be the choice, but it's extremely expensive.

 

Can you explain me one thing I can't understand - how Mr. flying_bostonian or others can sell sometime cheap coins slabbed? they are sold for 20-30 USD. I can't get it, since as far as I know NGC takes 20-30 USD for one coin - where is the profit? or cheap coins can be slabbed for a little money?

 

If I would find a secure way to send the coins for grading and to receive them back, I'll do it for the very high grade coins and commemoratives (to sleep well ;) ) I have in my own collection.

 

Thanks for your understanding, WCO, you got exactly my point. A friend of mine (selling coins on eBay USA) called me recently very irritated and asked how to send coins there, as he also sells the same coins as flying_bostonian, but for half the price :ninja:

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I'll try ;) The only thing what irritates me - I can't send the coins from Germany to the US insured. Well, DHL may be the choice, but it's extremely expensive.

 

Can you explain me one thing I can't understand - how Mr. flying_bostonian or others can sell sometime cheap coins slabbed? they are sold for 20-30 USD. I can't get it, since as far as I know NGC takes 20-30 USD for one coin - where is the profit? or cheap coins can be slabbed for a little money?

 

If I would find a secure way to send the coins for grading and to receive them back, I'll do it for the very high grade coins and commemoratives (to sleep well ;) ) I have in my own collection.

 

Thanks for your understanding, WCO, you got exactly my point. A friend of mine (selling coins on eBay USA) called me recently very irritated and asked how to send coins there, as he also sells the same coins as flying_bostonian, but for half the price :ninja:

 

It's easy why cheap coins sometimes sell for less than is the cost to slab them. You may lose on a single coin but win a lot on average. It is already known (but not everyone would tell you that) that the biggest price achieved when you start auctions low. This is more related to humans' psichology. People enjoy to play "bidding games", the more people want the coin, the more bids there are, the more others will want it too. This will lead to increasing number of bids, higher price, more people attracted, even more bids... Kind of gambling in bidding wars. So in case to get higher total result one have to risk sometimes lose money on one or two coins. flying_bostonian knows exactly what he is doing, he will prosper I think, and the only part there I do not like about him, why to sell cleaned coins without warning.

 

About NGC, you can become a member of American Numismatic Assoc. and then submit coins directly to NGC, or you can go with authorized dealer, who will do all the job.

 

WCO

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To add to what WCO is saying about the seller: Not only is he selling the coins without revealing that they are harshly cleaned, he did not bother to respond to a direct question about it on the Cathrine rouble. :ninja:

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