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REAL money versus paper money


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Was that a commercial for the Liberty Dollar? :ninja:

 

I thought the same thing actually.

 

Here is a question I should know the answer to: Why did the US come off of gold/silver backed currency?

 

I think it was around the Great Depression.

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heheh...there wasn't any bashing. everything he said was correct. even the most die-hard currency collector will acknowledge the status of "fiat currency"... printed pieces of paper that's worth face value just because the government says so.

 

maybe this is one aspect in which coin/paper money collectors differ. a lot of coin collectors like the feel of valuable metal in their hand. the heft & weight of gold or silver. the knowledge that they have something that will always have intrinsic value. paper money collectors...are more like art collectors. we collect small, limited-edition, historical pieces of art. there's no illusions of having "real money".

 

if there was a vote, i'd vote against fiat currency. we should definitely go back to paper currency backed by "real money". i'm from california, and i'm all for 30 cent gasoline! as a collector though, it makes little difference to me if they're back by precious metals or not. i'd never redeem them anyway. i'd just be trading paper for metal.

 

on a different tangent...why is metal considered "real money" anyway? because it's an accepted standard? because it's not man-made and is found in limited quantities in nature? so are cowrie shells. why is gold worth more to humans than cowrie shells? why do we have silver certificates instead of cowrie certificates? or oil certificates? or bald-eagle feather certificates? what exactly is "money" anyway? from my point of view...money is something people perceive to be of set worth. whether it's a hunk of metal or a slip of paper, the perception is still there. there's no scientific law that makes one natural substance to be of value. it's all in the human mind.

 

as a world paper collector, it amazes me sometimes. i can look through my collection and think "wow....thousands of miles away, somebody worked and toiled for a month just to receive this one slip of government-produced paper." :ninja:

 

anyway...the only part of the movie clip i don't agree with is when he goes through foreign currency. he says "azerbaijan...fifty, one hundred, a thousand". the images they show are clearly a russian 50 rubles, and a macedonian 100 dinars. heheh...at least he got the filipino 20 peso note right. ;)

 

vlcsnap28776-vi.jpgvlcsnap29097-vi.jpg

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I never thought about this, but I agree wit him 100%.

 

And we don't use shells or eagle feathers because they cant be shaped. Imagine having to bargain every time "No, this would be worth x pieces of paper". There wouldn't be any standard. And, you could gather some "Money" for yourself, by yourself. The bald eagle and the cowrie would be extinct within days.

 

IMHO

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He's completely wrong about what money is and isn't.

 

The simple fact is that money is and always has been what people think

it is. If paper money had no value than why would it buy any gas at all?

Money is worth what people think it is. If the government prints to much

or too much is mined from the ground then its value crashes. If people

come to suddenly believe that there is no gold than its value crashes.

 

He also misses the point about the value of gold. Gold has no intrinsic

value beyond what people ascribe to it. It pays no dividend and can earn

no interest. More and more people are coming to regard it as a barbarous

relic which has already eroded its value relative other money for 200 years.

Gold is an excellent store of value for short term changes in the value of

money and many believe this is about to occur now. But gold is obsolete

as money in the modern age where the very essentials of life are dependent

on the smooth functioning of the entire economy.

 

The perturbations inherent in the use of gold as money are far too severe.

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Not really sure what to make of that. Not really sure what makes people produce stories like that although mostly true. What gets me is he is obviously not a coin collector. Not many collectors would bounce coins to hear the difference in sound. As to paper money, it is almost at the end of existance as the credit/debit cards take over anyway. Now why didn't he bounce them?

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Certainly we could use shells or feathers or rocks for money, but ultimately for anything to serve as money it must be universally recognized as having a set value (not sure about you note collectors, but you could show me currency from 95% of the countries of the world and I would have no idea of their value outside of being pretty pieces of paper). Gold and silver are standard, and everyone on the planet recognizes them for what they are. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold wherever you are, but commerce would be impossible if we couldn't trade due to arguments about the size or quality of your shells vs. my feathers.

 

Cladking offers some popular arguments by proponents of fiat currency, but unfortunately there are some serious problems with these arguments. It's true that gold does not pay interest or dividends, but neither does fiat currency! I have a series 1990 $50 Federal reserve note on my desk, it's been sitting there for a few years, and you know what? It's never paid me any interest or dividends! Sure, if I put it in a bank I could have earned 3% or 4% interest, but the currency wouldn't pay that, the bank would. In the same way, I could loan out my gold and earn interest on it for the duration of the loan, they even publish gold lease rates daily on Kitco.com, of course the gold doesn't pay the interest, the borrower does. So that entire arguement is just a red herring.

 

Of course, there is the other arguement that a gold or silver standard is obsolete and couldn't function for the modern economy. Usung his words, "But gold is obsolete as money in the modern age where the very essentials of life are dependent on the smooth functioning of the entire economy." I am not sure we really are better off with this modern economy. Think about it, since the end of the gold standard in 1971, it now takes both parents working to have a life that's still not quite as good as our parents or grandparents had with only one of them working. Are we really better off? Sure we have a lot of neat gadgets and such, but are our lives really better? This is what fiat currency has brought us, a life of harder work to get less than our ancestors had.

 

And he says, "More and more people are coming to regard it as a barbarous relic which has already eroded its value relative other money for 200 years." Wow, I am not even sure where that comes from. Back in 1971, the dollar was pegged to gold at $35/oz. and oil was selling for about $3.50 per barrel, or about 1/10th of an ounce of gold. Today, oil is $66 per barrel, which is still about a 1/10th of an ounce of gold, looking at that, it doesn't seem like gold has been what's eroding! In fact, you can look at any number of items, and their prices in terms of gold have changed very little over the last millenia, let alone 200 years, so judge for yourself whether gold or paper money is eroding in value...

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It is all very well having a vast hoard of Gold/Silver/Platinum at hand ;) but just imagine if you have to relocate ;) then the problems begin :D Hence the onset of paper money that was a promissory note ;) much easier to carry & hide from those rouges who would take it from you ;) OK so over the years these notes have developed and changed and unfortunatly the bank wont give you the value in Gold/Silver/Platinum :D So which would you rather have LOL me a mix of both :D

 

De Orc :ninja:

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Of course, there is the other arguement that a gold or silver standard is obsolete and couldn't function for the modern economy. Usung his words, "But gold is obsolete as money in the modern age where the very essentials of life are dependent on the smooth functioning of the entire economy." I am not sure we really are better off with this modern economy. Think about it, since the end of the gold standard in 1971, it now takes both parents working to have a life that's still not quite as good as our parents or grandparents had with only one of them working. Are we really better off? Sure we have a lot of neat gadgets and such, but are our lives really better? This is what fiat currency has brought us, a life of harder work to get less than our ancestors had.

 

And he says, "More and more people are coming to regard it as a barbarous relic which has already eroded its value relative other money for 200 years." Wow, I am not even sure where that comes from. Back in 1971, the dollar was pegged to gold at $35/oz. and oil was selling for about $3.50 per barrel, or about 1/10th of an ounce of gold. Today, oil is $66 per barrel, which is still about a 1/10th of an ounce of gold, looking at that, it doesn't seem like gold has been what's eroding! In fact, you can look at any number of items, and their prices in terms of gold have changed very little over the last millenia, let alone 200 years, so judge for yourself whether gold or paper money is eroding in value...

 

 

You are, of course, right that fiat currency pays no dividend either. The point was that

money does not and never did derive its value from some intrinsic thing. Gold has real

value and always has, but gold money worked because they believed the money and the

gold had value.

 

There are many good reasons to dislike aspects of modern life and the modern economy.

Be that as it may we are stuck with it. The billions of people on this planet depend on all

the various parts to work. If one part breaks down then the entire system breaks down

and this planet will simply not feed six billion people without technology.

 

I don't believe gold has lost a substantial part of its value yet. A good case can be made

that it's as valuable as it was two hundred years ago but there are growing numbers who

believe that it did reach its peak back then and has ebbed slightly in value. It will probably

remain a good vehicle to protect one's wealth from sporatic inflation for generations.

 

The problem with gold is the ame as for fiat; politicians can gut either. Changing banking

law, debasing the coinage, selling the backing for currency, etc, etc, has occurred forever.

 

It's not the nature of fiat that causes inflation, it's the nature of politicians. It's the nature of

people to put leaders in place who promise to raid the treasury or to stop the taxing to fill it.

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I think we are crossing agruments for investments, money, and security.

 

As an investment having a lb. of gold is better than having a lb. of paper money,, one will maintain it's value and one will erode.

 

As money, and for the purpose of commerce, I believe them to be equal with a slight nod to paper as the convenient media in high volume trading of today,,,, and each can experience errosion via the Theory of Quantity (paper by printing more of it, gold by mining more of it). Look at what happened in Spain when all that new America's gold hit it's economy.

 

As security both suck, although gold abit less ("abit"). At the lowest level, we must eat (grain / meats currency),,, be clothed (Cloth / leathers currency),, and be housed (lumber / home currency).. you can't eat gold , wear gold , or seek shelter in gold.... same goes for paper.

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I think the thing is that paper mony is supposed to draw its value by representing something with inherent value while paper money is today simply fiat...the same as emergency money of old. Paper money now has value simple because someone says so and with fractional banking money is just created out of thin air and floods the market with new money thus keep us in a constant state of inflation.

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905956A.jpg

 

Today this note is worth.... $5.50

Today the silver dollars that would have paid out this note are worth....$51.74

 

Anybody wanna hand me their Morgans for this?

 

903757A.jpg

 

Today this note is worth about $25-$30 today(collectible value you know)

 

Today the $20 Gold St. Gaudens it would have paid out would be worth....$653.20!

 

Who is going to give me their Saint for this one?

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I think the thing is that paper mony is supposed to draw its value by representing something with inherent value while paper money is today simply fiat...the same as emergency money of old. Paper money now has value simple because someone says so and with fractional banking money is just created out of thin air and floods the market with new money thus keep us in a constant state of inflation.

 

 

Your right. This should be the most significant point in this argument. The comparison of an old twenty dollar bill vs. it's gold currency counterpart is a comparison of investments in my mind. Anyone holding a $20 gold coin in a safe for that period of time would have been much better served by putting it into the stock market or real estate or numerous other investments that historically outperform gold as a place to park money over time.

Now as to the inherent value of gold,,,, well, I guess it's pretty. Silver is used more in industry so I see it's value abit more clearly. Copper is consumed in large quantities in industrial and residential applications, so I really see it's value...... and any of them are subject to the laws of Quantity (inflation) as mining production can be amped up at will. ..... and what the heck would we do if we couldn't inflate our national deficit away as needed.... Fiscal responsibility in the land of backyard pools, SUV's, and hair spray... r u kidding :ninja:

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905956A.jpg

 

Today this note is worth.... $5.50

Today the silver dollars that would have paid out this note are worth....$51.74

 

Anybody wanna hand me their Morgans for this?

 

903757A.jpg

 

Today this note is worth about $25-$30 today(collectible value you know)

 

Today the $20 Gold St. Gaudens it would have paid out would be worth....$653.20!

 

Who is going to give me their Saint for this one?

 

 

 

OK - now let me ask you a question. Let's say you had 10 Troy ounces of gold ( just plain ordinary gold not coins with numismatic value ) and I offered you 8 current $100 dollar bills for each ounce - would you say no ?

 

Well I already know you wouldn't say no, but why ? It's just worthless paper isn't it ?

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