Jump to content
CoinPeople.com

How Far Back Can We Go??


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

1627 silver Patagon minted in Artois (rat mint mark above crown on dated side) for Arras. Followed by a silver jeton issued for Pierre Le Marchant, the Treasurer general of france at that time and Kings Counsellor to Louis XIII.

 

958437.jpg

917360.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ian - Thats a neat design on that 1631 silver jeton.

 

Here's a 1632 with the same reverse detail, but in better nick. The 1631 is a real emigma though. The explanation i've been presented with in the past for the reverse of the 1632 is that it relates to the taking of Saluces (Savoy) that same year, yet the 1631 jeton pre- dates that event. Clearly the design has nothing to do with events in Savoy in 1632.

 

958632.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's a 1632 with the same reverse detail, but in better nick. The 1631 is a real emigma though. The explanation i've been presented with in the past for the reverse of the 1632 is that it relates to the taking of Saluces (Savoy) that same year, yet the 1631 jeton pre- dates that event. Clearly the design has nothing to do with events in Savoy in 1632

 

DE LA SOCIÉTÉ 'ARCHÉOLOGIE LORRAINE ET DU MUSEE HISTORIQUE LORRAIN. VINGT-HUITIÈME ANNEE. — 1879.

Cette riposte est trop claire pour que nous ayons à nous y arrêter; mais on voit par nos jetons de 1631 et 1632, à la légende FVGAT OPORTVNE, dont le sens sarcastique est également facile à saisir du moment où ces pièces sont rapportées aux défaites que 'l'intervention de la France venait de faire éprouver au duc de Savoie et à ses alliés, que le vieil OPl'ORTVNE de Charles-Emmanuel et la manière piquante dont Henri IV y avait répondu en 1601, étaient encore connus des beaux-esprits chargés de fournir des devises pour les jetons des administrations royales.

Le jeton qui porte la date de 1631 est le seul que nous croyions officiel (The counter which carries date from 1631 is the only as we believe is official: my translation!). Frappé pour l'époque du 1 janvier, il se rapporte, suivant l'usage, aux événements de l'année précédente, année dans le cours de laquelle Charles-Emmanuel était mort, « de douleur, dit le président Hénault, du voir par sa fausse politique son pays également ouvert aux Français et à ses alliés ».

 

This article shows that the 1631 jeton was an official one issued for the invasion of Savoy 1630-1631 and they believed that the 1632 jeton was an unofficial jeton just using the design of the 1631 jeton. LINK TO THE ARTICLE The Peace of Cherasco which put an end to the second Monferrato war, drawn up in April 1631 by Emperor Ferdinand III, Louis XIII of France, and Vittorio Amedeo I, Duke of Savoy. So the 1632 jeton was struck after the Peace Treaty.

Link to post
Share on other sites
(snip) This article shows that the 1631 jeton was an official one issued for the invasion of Savoy 1630-1631 and they believed that the 1632 jeton was an unofficial jeton just using the design of the 1631 jeton. LINK TO THE ARTICLE The Peace of Cherasco which put an end to the second Monferrato war, drawn up in April 1631 by Emperor Ferdinand III, Louis XIII of France, and Vittorio Amedeo I, Duke of Savoy. So the 1632 jeton was struck after the Peace Treaty.

 

I am once more profoundly impressed by your research abilities. Many thanks indeed. I could find absolutely nothing when I searched for data concerning the 1631. 1632 is the only date listed in Feuardent, and Mitchiner for the legend, which is in itself a little strange given that the 1632 appears to be subject of debate in relation to its bon fides. The article you have found confirms the association of the 1631 reverse with Savoy, but for me raises questions as to why it is matched with the Chancellory as opposed to for example the `Conseil du Roi' (?). I suspect there may be more to the story behind this one just waiting to be unravelled.

 

Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites
The article you have found confirms the association of the 1631 reverse with Savoy, but for me raises questions as to why it is matched with the Chancellory as opposed to for example the `Conseil du Roi' (?). I suspect there may be more to the story behind this one just waiting to be unravelled.

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian, wish I was able to read & understand french better. Could a possible explaination for the Chancellory being used, & not the Conseil du Roi, be the power struggle behind the scenes between the Queen Mother & the Kings brother trying to destroy Richelieu in 1630. I don't know if that makes sense at all. Also I believe that I read somewhere that the King was unwell and it was Richelieu that ordered the invasion of Savoy in 1630.

 

I almost forgot, what a great collection you have!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Ian, wish I was able to read & understand french better. Could a possible explaination for the Chancellory being used, & not the Conseil du Roi, be the power struggle behind the scenes between the Queen Mother & the Kings brother trying to destroy Richelieu in 1630. I don't know if that makes sense at all. Also I believe that I read somewhere that the King was unwell and it was Richelieu that ordered the invasion of Savoy in 1630.

 

I almost forgot, what a great collection you have!!!

 

Thanks again. I had thought that the 1632 jeton was more probably related to the routing of the Kings brother Gaston, Duc D'Orlean and Henri Duc de Montmorency (who was subsequently captured, imprisoned at Toulouse and subsequently put to death for treason)....Richelieu certainly knew how to make friends and influence people :ninja:

 

To catch up with the rest of the thread, here's another silver jeton dated 1623. I'm not sure if the reverse design is associated with any particular part of the administration. my suspicions are that it was a`stock' jeton. That is, a design that was struck and held in rreserve against the need to make up any shortfall in requirements elsewhere.

 

916865.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

a few from me for 1621

 

1. A Tallero of ferdinand II de Medici issued for Pisa.

909760.jpg

 

2. A silver jeton of Marie de Medici, mother of Louis XIII and issued as Queen Regent.

929498.jpg

 

3. A large 60 silver 60 kreuzer , crudely struck as ever for this issue.

958435.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
Your posting just reminded me that I have a 1622 of that very same type.

 

I love it when I remember that I have a coin that I had forgotten about.

Not sure if it is too many coins or old age setting in that causes this, perhaps a combination of both.

 

Nice Pisa Tallero there Ian. I wonder if I have one of those? :ninja:;)

Link to post
Share on other sites
I love it when I remember that I have a coin that I had forgotten about.

Not sure if it is too many coins or old age setting in that causes this, perhaps a combination of both.

 

Nice Pisa Tallero there Ian. I wonder if I have one of those? :ninja:;)

 

you should maybe go and check in your collection as i did ;) ........here's the 1622 I mentioned:

959431.jpg

 

in the interim, moving forward here's a 1620 silver escalin from the Brabant (Spanish Netherlands).

958445.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

1618 'orte' from Danzig, complete with hole.

 

912921.jpg

 

1617 silver jeton issued for the Conseil du Roi (Kings Counsel)

 

947376.jpg

 

1616 silver daalder from Utrecht, Netherlands

 

958443.jpg

 

over to somebody else for now.......

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...