Roubles 1834 Alexander I. Monument - Genuine or fake?

[kisenish]

Dear community,

 

I would like to here your opinions on these two coins. Do you think they are genuine or fake and why?

 

Thanks a lot!

 

#1

#2

 

http://staraya-moneta.coinsportal.ru/viewt...sc&start=30

[gxseries]

Ok I admit this is very difficult and just based upon what I see something is wrong.

 

The first coin has an unusual die break which I don't remember seeing. Also the relief on the bottom of Alexander I's neck and the location of Gube's name seems a bit "off". However what might be more disturbing is that I think I have a relatively similar coin to THAT! (just without the die crack) I believe the first coin is a proof coin. I would later post my coins in a new poll to see if they are both counterfeits.

 

The second coin, I can't tell. Since you asked "do you think it's genuine or fake" you obviously arose some suspicion there but I decided if I can't tell what's wrong, I wouldn't comment on it, although the patina looks like it was stripped off and then reapplied later.

[Oldman]

Hi!

Here is my personal opinion.

The first coin is of questionable origin (can not say more - need to see the coin):

1) Do not remember seeing die breaks on this type

2) The Column should have higher relief

3) The Imperor's eye and nose do not match known specimens

All these issues do not necessary mean that the first coin is a fake , however, they need to be answered or explained.

 

The second coin is genuine.

 

Best regards,

[bobh]

I don't really collect commemoratives, so I don't have a coin here for comparison. However, in addition to the suspicious die break, there are little raised marks inside some of the letters on the obverse of that coin which could be tooling marks.

 

Also, the angle of the vertical part of the hard sign at the end of "АЛЕКСАНДРЪ" is tilted rather much relative to the vertical part of the "Р" immediately preceding it. These two letters are almost parallel on the second coin. All in all, I think the shapes of the letters in the legend is a bit irregular which makes the coin suspicious to me.

 

As to the second coin, the overall toning and wear look genuine to me -- it is quite difficult to fake something like this, so I will guess that this coin is genuine.

[kisenish]

Hi guys,

 

I saw the coin with exactly same 3 die cracks - one under the portrait, one between B and M, one across the column from 11 to 5 o'clock. It was sold on the eBay USA around a year ago. This is the link, although with wrong pictures now, below are the pictures I saved from this offer:

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ADME:L:RTQ:DE:1

 

[Oldman]

Hi guys,

 

I saw the coin with exactly same 3 die cracks - one under the portrait, one between B and M, one across the column from 11 to 5 o'clock. It was sold on the eBay USA around a year ago. This is the link, although with wrong pictures now, below are the pictures I saved from this offer:

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ADME:L:RTQ:DE:1

 

Unfortunately, these pictures convinced me even more that the coin was a fake. Just take a critical look. The fact that the coin was sold does not really prove anything. Anything stamped RUSSIA sells these days.

[kisenish]

Dear guys,

 

If somebody is interested, I made pictures of edge, as well as additional pictures of both sides:

 

 

#1:

[kisenish]

#2:

[WCO]

kisenish,

 

 

I enjoyed the way you trying to "authenticate" your coins. Asking the same questions on many forums and let many people from many "numismatic realms" to vote if coins are authentic or not seems amazing.

 

Do you believe that if more people vote than their answers will be close to the truth? It ever crossed your mind that 100 people can ALL be wrong? What are you going to do with the voting info from different forums?

 

Are you finally closer to find answers to YOUR questions about authenticity of YOUR coins?

 

I'll give you just single advise. Authenticate your coins with services that are qualified.

And once authenticated, please post the info on all forums where you asked your questions. Then at least we will see how reliable is opinion of a crowd.

 

WCO

[bobh]

kisenish,

[snip] ... It ever crossed your mind that 100 people can ALL be wrong?

This is a very good point ... to quote Helmut Schmidt, former Bundeskanzler of Germany:

"Die Mehrheit hat nicht immer recht." (trans.: "The majority is not always right.")

[bobh]

I'll give you just single advise. Authenticate your coins with services that are qualified.

And once authenticated, please post the info on all forums where you asked your questions. Then at least we will see how reliable is opinion of a crowd.

 

WCO

Reliable? Could be just chance!

 

It all depends on this: Who do you WANT to believe?

[akdrv]

 

"The majority is not always right", but, surprisingly, the average results of a survey of a diverse and qualified group usually are.

 

There is an interesting book on this subject:

 

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations, first published in 2004, is a book written by James Surowiecki about the aggregation of information in groups, resulting in decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group. The book presents numerous case studies and anecdotes to illustrate its argument, and touches on several fields, primarily economics and psychology.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

[WCO]

 

"The majority is not always right", but, surprisingly, the average results of a survey of a diverse and qualified group usually are.

 

There is an interesting book on this subject:

 

The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations, first published in 2004, is a book written by James Surowiecki about the aggregation of information in groups, resulting in decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group. The book presents numerous case studies and anecdotes to illustrate its argument, and touches on several fields, primarily economics and psychology.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

 

Followed the link (above) and found this text:

 

Failures of crowd intelligence

Surowiecki studies situations ... in which the crowd produces very bad judgment, and argues that in these types of situations their cognition or cooperation failed because (in one way or another) the members of the crowd were too conscious of the opinions of others and began to emulate each other and conform rather than think differently.

 

....

 

That was exactly my point why no one should try to authenticate coins on a large public forum, and even worse, on many forums. No difference WHAT ANSWERS one receives, he never knows on the first place if it is sum of individually thinking people or just group of people who emulate one another ... And I'd rather believe in the second...

 

Here are voting results so far from other Russian forums:

-------------------------

STARAYA MONETA:

Колонны - подлинники или фуфела?

Обе монеты – подлинные 0% [ 0 ] Both coins are genuine

#1 – фуфел 5% [ 6 ] #1 is fake

#2 – фуфел 0% [ 0 ] #2 is fake

Обе монеты – фуфельные 25% [ 2 ] Both coins are fake

 

Всего проголосовало : 8 Total voted 8.

-------------------------

COINS.SU:

Колонны - подлинники или фуфела?

Обе монеты - подлинные 13% [ 3 ] Both coins are genuine

#1 - фуфел 56% [ 13 ] #1 is fake

#2 - фуфел 8% [ 2 ] #2 is fake

Обе монеты - фуфельные 21% [ 5 ] Both coins are fake

 

Всего голосов : 23. Total voted 23.

 

-------------------------

 

Best regards,

WCO

 

P.S. Still would like to learn the result of REAL authentication of these two coins. Would not be much surprised if those voting results are another example of "Failures of crowd intelligence".

[Cheburgen]

[Cheburgen]

Oh I forget to ask you Ilya. What is your opinion on both coins?

[kisenish]

The reason why I posted voting on different forums is to see the opinion of the people who, I believe, are more specialists than NGC and PGCS taken together. I saw many slabbed coins on major auctions which were fakes. It is also true that I have / had my own opinion and just want to discuss these coins with the representative number of people.

[kisenish]

As in your slogan, WCO - "Knowledge is power" This is because I don't only want to know opinions whether coins are genuine, but also would like to get an explanation why and, thus, to increase my own qualification. It works, BTW, since I got also some personal messages with many details regarding these coins. I'm very thankful to these people helping me.

[WCO]

The reason why I posted voting on different forums is to see the opinion of the people who, I believe, are more specialists than NGC and PGCS taken together. I saw many slabbed coins on major auctions which were fakes. It is also true that I have / had my own opinion and just want to discuss these coins with the representative number of people.

 

No specialist can authenticate/grade coins looking at pictures. Of course there are cases when fakes are crude and immediately recognazable, but this is not the case. Everyone who tried and gave you their opinions by doing so stated "I am no specialist". So for now you have opinions of many non specialists, even worse, opinion of a crowd that may be ALWAYS wrong or right and you never know what may be the case.

 

As in your slogan, WCO - "Knowledge is power" This is because I don't only want to know opinions whether coins are genuine, but also would like to get an explanation why and, thus, to increase my own qualification. It works, BTW, since I got also some personal messages with many details regarding these coins. I'm very thankful to these people helping me.

 

To increase your own qualification I suggest you read books on authentication techniques, there are plenty on the subject. They are not about Russian coins though, but once you read you will see that Russian coins does not stand separatly from other world coinage, everything general is true for Russian coins as well.

 

That's right, knowledge is power, but not misleading information in quantities supplied on forums. I see you don't trust much to grading services. That's unfortunate, since with this kind of coins they will answer with 99.9% accuracy.

 

If you are interested you can do the following:

1. You tell everyone what is YOUR personal opinion on authenticity of these two coins. You have them in your hands and for sure it is better than to look on any pictures.

2. We already know how different forums voted.

3. Than you send the coins to NGC for authentication/grading.

4. You post results of grading on the same forums (pictures of NGC labels)

 

How do you like my plan? I can even help you with NGC if you want.

 

WCO

 

P.S. I do not have ANY opinion about authenticity of your coins and I did not vote since this is 5-th choice that is missing in poll.

[Cheburgen]

So basically you are saying that who gave him opinion about these coins is no specialist and you, who do not have ANY opinion about these coins, are. That is very nice.

[WCO]

So basically you are saying that who gave him opinion about these coins is no specialist and you, who do not have ANY opinion about these coins, are. That is very nice.

 

Sergey, twisting the meaning again? Nice twist.

 

I said three things:

 

1. Would be wise to send the coins to a grading service NGC or PCGS

2. Authentication is not possible by looking at pictures provided and it is why

3. I do not have ANY opinion on authenticity of both coins

 

 

WCO

[Cheburgen]

Sergey, twisting the meaning again? Nice twist.

 

I said three things:

 

1. Would be wise to send the coins to a grading service NGC or PCGS

2. Authentication is not possible by looking at pictures provided and it is why

3. I do not have ANY opinion on authenticity of both coins

WCO

 

1. Yeah it would be nice if he wants to sell them.

 

2. Authentication is possible by looking at the pictures of the edges provided and it is why

 

3. I do have a very certain opinion about these 2 coins. Number 1 so-called proof with die breaks. No good. Fake. Number 2 genuine.

[WCO]

1. Yeah it would be nice if he wants to sell them.

 

2. Authentication is possible by looking at the pictures of the edges provided and it is why

 

3. I do have a very certain opinion about these 2 coins. Number 1 so-called proof with die breaks. No good. Fake. Number 2 genuine.

 

 

RWJ, I would appretiate to hear if you have any opinion on authenticity of these 2 coins? And if yes, then what it is? And if you don't have any opinion then why?

 

Thank you.

WCO

[Cheburgen]

RWJ, I would appretiate to hear if you have any opinion on authenticity of these 2 coins? And if yes, then what it is? And if you don't have any opinion then why?

 

Thank you.

WCO

 

Ilya, gimme your opinion about these 2 edges. Thanks.

 

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6995/1519lf1.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9844/2920wm1.jpg

[WCO]

Ilya, gimme your opinion about these 2 edges. Thanks.

 

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6995/1519lf1.jpg

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9844/2920wm1.jpg

 

 

I will let Basok answer you:

http://www.coins.su/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14904&start=60

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Basok

флудер 7-го разряда

 

Да.. НИКОГДА не видел чтобы так хорошо совпадал шаг зубцов на обеих монетах, если одна из них фальшивая. Моё мнение что обе монеты нормальные а 84% проголосовавших что как минимум одна из них фальшак просто мудозвоны. Так, без обиды сказано, с любовью. Голосуйте, голосуйте... проголосуйте что вообще все в мире монеты это фуфло. Демократия решит судьбу нумизматики. Здорово!

 

kisenish, если вы верите большинству голосов и согласны продать эту монету за нормальную цену, дайте мне знать. С удовольствием куплю.

 

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Translation.

 

Yes... Never seen reeding being this perfect and exactly the same on both coins, if one of them is a fake. My opinion is that both coins are authentic and 84% of people who voted that one of the coins is a fake are just idiots (in reality much harsher word). I am saying it with love. Vote, vote.... vote that all coins in the world are fakes. Democracy will decide the fate of numismatics! Perfect!

 

kisenish, if you believe to majority of voters and agree to sell that ("fake") coin for reasonable price, then let me know. I will buy with pleasure.

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Cheburgen, you can't even blame me that I said that. And I tried to warn you and kisenish, didn't I? Still believe in opinion of a crowd or now will listen that it may be another example of "Failures of crowd intelligence"?

 

WCO

[bobh]

I understood everything except "мудозвоны" ... it's not in any of my dictionaries, either ...