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face value vs. collector value


San_Miguel98
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i was off shoring up my pre-euro collection and i noticed plenty of notes are now being listed for far cheaper than they were several years ago. most pre-euro currencies will no longer be exchangeable in their country's central banks after 2012. a few, like germany, belgium, luxembourg, ireland, austria, and spain have indefinite exchange periods. for the rest...2012 is the deadline. do you think collector value for notes of those countries will ever drop to below their former face values?

 

for example, let's say italy printed out millions of L. 500,000 notes. before 2002, the exchange rate for one of these things was around $340.00. after they lose their exchangeability, they're pretty much worthless except to collectors and sentimentalists. so, supply and demand come into play. if a large cache of these notes surfaces and ends up flooding the collector market, might they be bought and sold for $200, $100, or even $20?

 

maybe it's a foreign concept to me because american currency has always stayed legal tender, (for the most part). i can't imagine a 1928 $1000 bill ever ending up on ebay for a few dollars.

 

what does everybody think?

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I did wonder why ROI banknotes were so expensive, now it's clear that they can still be handed in for face value.

 

I actually find it odd that the US don't take old designs out of circulation. The main reason here in the UK (and I imagine the rest of Europe) we change note designs every 8-10 years is to combat forgeries. From what I remember in one of the papers over here they reckon that 40% of US banknotes are forgeries :ninja: and they won't call the old designs back in for that reason

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additional info for the "market flood" scenario-

 

the bank of finland reports €236 million worth of markkaa notes were never turned in for euro exchange. that's over 1.4 billion markkas! the bank also acknowledges that the majority of these unaccounted bills are probably in the hands of collectors.

 

http://www.bof.fi/en/setelit_ja_kolikot/la...evat_markat.htm

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I did wonder why ROI banknotes were so expensive, now it's clear that they can still be handed in for face value.

 

I actually find it odd that the US don't take old designs out of circulation. The main reason here in the UK (and I imagine the rest of Europe) we change note designs every 8-10 years is to combat forgeries. From what I remember in one of the papers over here they reckon that 40% of US banknotes are forgeries ;) and they won't call the old designs back in for that reason

 

hmmm...with the exception of a few of the more recent $100 "supernotes", i think most u.s. forgeries are fairly easy to detect. the story we get for the keeping of our old designs legal tender is "consumer confidence in the dollar". but then again, who knows? :ninja:

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I did wonder why ROI banknotes were so expensive, now it's clear that they can still be handed in for face value.

 

I actually find it odd that the US don't take old designs out of circulation. The main reason here in the UK (and I imagine the rest of Europe) we change note designs every 8-10 years is to combat forgeries. From what I remember in one of the papers over here they reckon that 40% of US banknotes are forgeries :ninja: and they won't call the old designs back in for that reason

 

 

Indeed you are correct that they have called in older English notes, but they have never lost their redemption value, so that I can bring in a note to the BoE from the 18th century and redeem it for payment if I were so foolish. By that measure since BoE has been issuing banknotes since 1694, they have the longest redemptive clause around.

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i was off shoring up my pre-euro collection and i noticed plenty of notes are now being listed for far cheaper than they were several years ago. most pre-euro currencies will no longer be exchangeable in their country's central banks after 2012. a few, like germany, belgium, luxembourg, ireland, austria, and spain have indefinite exchange periods. for the rest...2012 is the deadline. do you think collector value for notes of those countries will ever drop to below their former face values?

 

for example, let's say italy printed out millions of L. 500,000 notes. before 2002, the exchange rate for one of these things was around $340.00. after they lose their exchangeability, they're pretty much worthless except to collectors and sentimentalists. so, supply and demand come into play. if a large cache of these notes surfaces and ends up flooding the collector market, might they be bought and sold for $200, $100, or even $20?

 

maybe it's a foreign concept to me because american currency has always stayed legal tender, (for the most part). i can't imagine a 1928 $1000 bill ever ending up on ebay for a few dollars.

 

what does everybody think?

 

I always assumed that the when the country of origin had demonetized the old stuff after a certain date, it became worthless and people would then sell it for what they could get for it. Unfortunately for me, all my favorite notes that fall into this category are going strong (French influenced African notes for example) due to collectors demands.

 

 

 

additional info for the "market flood" scenario-

 

the bank of finland reports €236 million worth of markkaa notes were never turned in for euro exchange. that's over 1.4 billion markkas! the bank also acknowledges that the majority of these unaccounted bills are probably in the hands of collectors.

 

http://www.bof.fi/en/setelit_ja_kolikot/la...evat_markat.htm

 

In "Collecting Paper Money For Pleasure And Profit" by Barry Krause 1997 edition, there is a statement under Missing Money that says a 1985 Federal Reserve System study estimated that about 75% of circulating US money (coins and Paper totaling $154 billion) could not be located. They think that it was due to criminals and hoarding by other countries and said that collectors had very little of it. I have always been amazed at that.

 

As far as counterfeiting the US Notes, I have heard or read somewhere (perhaps in the book above) that the US gave away a printing press many years ago along with some plates! I think it was to a Middle Eastern country, but I cannot remember which one for sure... So they can't complaint too much about foreign forgeries if they do stupid things like that.

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One caution here, just because coins or paper money have been demonetized does not mean they do not have value or cannot be redeemed.

 

Britain demonetized pre decimal coinage, with the exception of the Sixpence, Shilling, and Florin, which became new coins after 1971, mainly 2.5 Pence, 5 Pence, and 10 Pence coins. In 1980 the Sixpence was demonetized, yet I can still take them to the Bank of England and redeem them for 2.5P each. Similarly in the early 1990's all Shillings, Florins and older 5p and 10p coins were demonetized, but still redeemable.

 

France demonetized the Franc coins pretty much right away, but the banknotes were demonetized in stages, but it was possible to redeem all banknotes issued after 1945 until very recently.

 

Even when and if currencies lose their redemptive value, the old national currencies will be collected vigorously so that for the most part they will not lose value, unless it is something like older Polish money.

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I did wonder why ROI banknotes were so expensive, now it's clear that they can still be handed in for face value.

 

I actually find it odd that the US don't take old designs out of circulation. The main reason here in the UK (and I imagine the rest of Europe) we change note designs every 8-10 years is to combat forgeries. From what I remember in one of the papers over here they reckon that 40% of US banknotes are forgeries :ninja: and they won't call the old designs back in for that reason

 

As Singapore is part of the Commonwealth, naturally, they have similiar currency policies, changing new design every 10 years plus minus.

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most pre-euro currencies will no longer be exchangeable in their country's central banks after 2012. a few, like germany, belgium, luxembourg, ireland, austria, and spain have indefinite exchange periods. for the rest...2012 is the deadline.

Not quite right ... In four countries (Finland, France, Greece, Italy) the redemption period ends in 2012; in Portugal you have until 2022, and in the Netherlands it's 2032. The remaining seven do not have any time limit. Not exactly what I would call a few. :ninja: And yes, I suppose that the notes which cannot be redeemed any more will be less expensive, except maybe for rare ones.

 

Christian

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Not quite right ... In four countries (Finland, France, Greece, Italy) the redemption period ends in 2012; in Portugal you have until 2022, and in the Netherlands it's 2032. The remaining seven do not have any time limit. Not exactly what I would call a few. :ninja: And yes, I suppose that the notes which cannot be redeemed any more will be less expensive, except maybe for rare ones.

 

Christian

 

 

If I remember France had a phased policy where notes from before certain dates lost redemption after a specific date, and that 2012 was for the most recent Franc notes. Banque de France stated when I was there that you could redeem notes dated back as early as 1945, but that they would gradually lose redemption after specific dates. But the old notes were exchanged 100 for 1 beginning in 1959, so that if you have a 5.000 Franc note, it was only worth 50 Francs then- but if in any sort of collectible condition it had a greater collector value.

 

I know that coins were pretty much worthless not long after the introduction of the Euro, I was warned every time I bought 100FF coins at the bank that they would soon be worthless. I had to explain that I was collecting them(they probably thought I was a fool) Somewhere in all my stuff I have rolls of 5 centime coins, I notice they are going for a bit on eBay now. I might pawn mine off.

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If I remember France had a phased policy where notes from before certain dates lost redemption after a specific date, and that 2012 was for the most recent Franc notes.

Right. I thought that "pre-euro" referred to the notes that were in use before the euro cash became legal tender.

 

Actually many countries limit the redemption periods for their coins and notes. Germany (the Federal Republic) for example does not, but in my opinion that is rather a symbolic thing. :ninja: Ten, twenty or thirty years, as in the other examples mentioned here, is a pretty long time ...

 

Christian

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Right. I thought that "pre-euro" referred to the notes that were in use before the euro cash became legal tender.

 

Actually many countries limit the redemption periods for their coins and notes. Germany (the Federal Republic) for example does not, but in my opinion that is rather a symbolic thing. :ninja: Ten, twenty or thirty years, as in the other examples mentioned here, is a pretty long time ...

 

Christian

 

Exactly, if a country keeps re-valuing it's currency it is a bad indicator of the economy. The DM was a strong currency that actually appreciated in value since it's inception in 1948. It was tantamount to the economic recovery and success that Germany became after the ruin of the 1939-1945 war. But then the French Franc got revalued 100-1 in 1959, and stayed particularly static exchange rate wise. Switzerland and Netherlands are other examples of currencies that actually appreciated after the war against the US $. And Japan's Yen, while at 120 to the dollar was at 360 to the dollar during the 1960's. It would make sense after a long sustained and stable time to revalue a currency at 100:1, but perhaps the Nippon Ginko doesn't agree.

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i've learned a lot so far, thanks guys! my main concern was with collecting pre-euro currencies. i was afraid that since some of the notes i had, (and a few the notes i wanted), would be unredeemable...their values would drop and i would be at a loss. since 2012 is only five years away, i was wondering if i should put off on acquiring a few notes. but now...i think demand for european notes will only increase, redeemable or otherwise.

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It is also a pity that if the USA were to do the same thing, I don't think I would really miss the old designs of the currency. It is not like we kept the 1917-1918 designs, or the 1896 Silver Certificate series, our currency just got small and lousy.

 

One thing I like about the currency I am collecting now, is that it was inspired by culture, ie art. Think of the Mucha designs on the Czechoslovakian currency and so much art inspired design on Spanish and even German banknotes. Bland and meaningless Euro bridge currency doesn't do anything for me. I like some Euro coins from some of the countries, notably Italy, and Greece, but some of the countries just blew it. The loss of national identity is something I do not like about the Euro.

 

It would have been better if they did something like the old LMU(Latin Monetary Unit) which, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, and Romania issued currency that had the same value, but retained national character. Curiously even Russia had LMU denominated coinage, which was the reason for the 7.5 Ruble and 15 Ruble coins of 1897, which corresponded to 20 and 40 LMU's.

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it's a pity that so many beautiful designs have given way to the euro's generic bridges. :ninja:

At least our euro notes are not as uniform as the US dollar bills. ;) But all those older designs are still collectible, and not that rare ...

 

Christian

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At least our euro notes are not as uniform as the US dollar bills. :ninja: But all those older designs are still collectible, and not that rare ...

 

Christian

 

 

Sorry Christian - I prefer this over a bridge any day:

 

gfr037_f.jpg

 

gfr037_b.jpg

 

GermanyFRP18-Duerer-1960-donatedmjd_f.jpg

 

And I am on the prowl for one, I wisht I had saved some when I was in Germany. Young Girl of Venice by the Great German artist, Albrecht Durer. Art inspiration for currency, the way it should be.

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Bland and meaningless Euro bridge currency doesn't do anything for me.

Then don't collect them - there are no laws that would keep you from collecting the designs that you appreciate. ;) For collectors we have those somewhat strange euro coins that are legal tender in a small part of the currency union only. Many of them are neat, but they are not made for circulation of course. Regular bank notes and coins are not primarily designed and developed with collectors in mind, whether we like that or not.

 

And yet, I like the idea of having those architectural styles depicted on the notes. After all, they do have quite a lot to do with our heritage. As for this "national" identity thing, oh well. I for one happen to be a North Rhine Westphalian, a citizen of the Federal Republic of Germany and of the European Union. And I do not like being reduced to any of the three. But I suppose this does not have much to do with face values and redemption deadlines ...

 

The 5 DM notes from that older (1963) series are nice but I never liked them a lot. Partly because I had no idea why we had such low value notes - even the series after that had a 5 DM note - , also because I preferred and prefer other designs, like the Dutch pre-euro notes. The way it should be. :ninja:

 

Christian

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How can Tabbs like bridges and windows over this?

Neat but old fashioned. ;) I also like old City Taler pieces, for example, but I would not want them in my wallet these days.

 

(Edit) Talking about bridges, you will surely be delighted :ninja: to hear about those new Danish note designs.

http://www.nationalbanken.dk/DNUK/NotesAnd...33;OpenDocument

 

No more people but bridges, hehe. The new notes will be introduced in the next few years. The two semi-finalists, so to say, are Kaspar Bonnén and Karin Birgitte Lund; their designs (and the other submitted note designs) can be viewed at the bank's website.

 

Christian

Edited by tabbs
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heheh...for each his own. i personally think euro notes are bland compared to what preceded them, just as i think u.s. small sized notes are bland compared to the notes that proceeded them. oddly, i'm trying to put together a collection of all the u.s. small sized varieties, as well as adding a few of the higher euro denominations.

 

hopefully, interest in the old european designs will encourage more to join the hobby. if we ever get as popular as the coin collectors, maybe we can retire off our collections like many of the earlier coin collectors who were able to get rare pieces before the rush caused their prices to skyrocket. heheh...wishful thinking. :ninja:

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that L.500,000 note was the very last piece of currency i added to my collection before i had to leave. also, i'll have a 1000 markka note waiting for me when i get home. those very same notes caused me to start this thread. ;) hopefully, i'll be able to find a decently priced 500 markka note and my finland run will be complete.

 

german note prices were down too...i picked up a pair of uncirculated 1000 and 500 dm notes for just $200 over face. or maybe i was just lucky. the dm i see listed now are selling for 1 dm to 1 dollar, or $1500 for those two notes. :ninja:

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oddly, i'm trying to put together a collection of all the u.s. small sized varieties, as well as adding a few of the higher euro denominations.

About as oddly, I read and post here even though I don't actually collect notes. ;) But I have always found it interesting how "modern" many Dutch (NLG) notes were, for example, while our (DEM) notes had a much more classical, and in my opinion less attractive, look.

 

Of course it is debatable whether it was a good idea to use "symbolic" bridges and arches on the euro notes instead of depicting real ones. But examples of these styles - Romanesque, Gothic, Renaissance, etc. - can be found throughout the currency union.

 

As for the older notes, those that can be redeemed without any time limit will probably continue to be expensive, and maybe even go up. After all, they keep their face value but there will be fewer and fewer of them, since the ones that get exchanged will be destroyed.* The notes that will one day lose their face value, on the other hand, may become bargains. Depends on their condition though.

 

(*) I have about 3,000 DEM here that I did not have to pay anything for. Well, they went through a shredder and were then given away by the central bank ... :ninja:

 

Christian

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