one-kuna Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 did something get lost in translation? wolmart auction lot description clearly says that it is a copy (in Russian) what do you both guys translate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 24, 2010 Report Share Posted June 24, 2010 Вообще-то, попробуйте доказать подлинность монеты, если её штемпель не описан. В России это не получиться. In fact, try to prove the authenticity coin, if it is postmarked not described. In Russia it is not certain. -------------- Прежде была ошибка. ------------ First was a mistake. ----------------- http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фа...vonetz_1706.jpg А это первый червонец 1706 года данного штемпеля, который известен в России. 15 лет назад он был куплен в антикварной лавке. Сейчас находится в частной коллекции. Я его видел. По-моему, он очень старый. Кто-нибудь встречал червонец данного штемпеля в серебре или в меди? Очень важно, прошу ответить. ----------------- And this is the first gold coin in 1706 of the stamp, which is known in Russia. 15 years ago it was bought in an antique shop. Now located in a private collection. I saw him. I think he is very old. Has anyone seen this stamp gold coin in silver or copper? It is very important, please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Has anyone seen this stamp gold coin in silver or copper? It is very important, please answer. I have not seen it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 I have not seen it Спасибо. Несколько лет назад первый экземпляр червонца хотели продать на аукционе. Но с экспертизой возникли проблемы. Технология изготовления, металл, размер и вес соответствуют стандарту. Проблема была с вариантом штемпеля, так как он не описан. Эксперты ГИМа получили информацию, что в Америке на каких-то аукционах он продавался как копия. Возможно даже, что это именно тот червонец, который вы обсуждали в этом форуме с самого начала. Кто-нибудь знает, были ли ещё продажи на аукционах червонца 1706 года именно этого штемпеля? А в серебре и меди? Это важно, прошу ответить. ------------------------- Thank you. Several years ago the first instance chervonetz wanted to sell at auction. But examination problems. Manufacturing, metal, size and weight meet the standard. The problem was with the version stamp, that it is not described. Experts GIMa received information that in America at some auctions it is sold as a copy. It is even possible that this is the gold coin, which you discussed in this forum from the outset. Does anyone know whether you have another sale at auction chervonetz 1706 is this stamp? And in the silver and copper? This is important, please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Спасибо. Несколько лет назад первый экземпляр червонца хотели продать на аукционе. Но с экспертизой возникли проблемы. Технология изготовления, металл, размер и вес соответствуют стандарту. Проблема была с вариантом штемпеля, так как он не описан. Эксперты ГИМа получили информацию, что в Америке на каких-то аукционах он продавался как копия. Возможно даже, что это именно тот червонец, который вы обсуждали в этом форуме с самого начала. Кто-нибудь знает, были ли ещё продажи на аукционах червонца 1706 года именно этого штемпеля? А в серебре и меди? Это важно, прошу ответить. ------------------------- Thank you. Several years ago the first instance chervonetz wanted to sell at auction. But examination problems. Manufacturing, metal, size and weight meet the standard. The problem was with the version stamp, that it is not described. Experts GIMa received information that in America at some auctions it is sold as a copy. It is even possible that this is the gold coin, which you discussed in this forum from the outset. Does anyone know whether you have another sale at auction chervonetz 1706 is this stamp? And in the silver and copper? This is important, please answer. Off-metal strike in silver is known. Novodel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Off-metal strike in silver is known. Novodel? sergio is asking for modern fakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Спасибо. Несколько лет назад первый экземпляр червонца хотели продать на аукционе. Но с экспертизой возникли проблемы. Технология изготовления, металл, размер и вес соответствуют стандарту. Проблема была с вариантом штемпеля, так как он не описан. Эксперты ГИМа получили информацию, что в Америке на каких-то аукционах он продавался как копия. Возможно даже, что это именно тот червонец, который вы обсуждали в этом форуме с самого начала. Кто-нибудь знает, были ли ещё продажи на аукционах червонца 1706 года именно этого штемпеля? А в серебре и меди? Это важно, прошу ответить. ------------------------- Thank you. Several years ago the first instance chervonetz wanted to sell at auction. But examination problems. Manufacturing, metal, size and weight meet the standard. The problem was with the version stamp, that it is not described. Experts GIMa received information that in America at some auctions it is sold as a copy. It is even possible that this is the gold coin, which you discussed in this forum from the outset. Does anyone know whether you have another sale at auction chervonetz 1706 is this stamp? And in the silver and copper? This is important, please answer. sergio, vasha moneta na volmare prodavalas kak kopiya, kakie u vas somneniya s etim faktom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Спасибо! Это официальный новодел червонца в серебре. Этот штемпель описан в литературе. У орла шея без перьев (основное отличие от золотого червонца 1706 неописанного штемпеля). По-моему, два разных штемпеля у серебряного новодела: http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,4721/prohod.html ------------------http://translate.google.ru/-------------- Thank you! This is an official remake gold pieces in silver. This stamp is described in the literature. At the neck of an eagle without feathers (the main difference from the 1706 gold pieces indescribable stamp). In my opinion, two different stamps in silver remake: http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,4721/prohod.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 sergio, vasha moneta na volmare prodavalas kak kopiya, kakie u vas somneniya s etim faktom Червонец на Вольмаре не проходил экспертизу, по-моему. Насколько я понял, эксперты ГИМа не дали никакого официального заключения по первой монете, которая им давалась несколько лет назад. Эксперты очень долго его изучали и у них не было точного ответа о подлинности. Через несколько дней у меня появится возможность предоставить часть фото золотого червонца 1706 года. У него в углублениях темно оранжевая патина, довольно толстая. По-моему, это признак очень старой монеты. По-моему, она вся была покрыта оранжевой (красно-коричневой) патиной, просто её почистили. Кстати, один коллекционер продает золотой червонец 1706 года, снятый с подвески за 50.000 долларов. Его не видел, штемпель не знаю. ------------------ Chervonets at Wolmar does not pass inspection, in my opinion. As I understand it, experts GIMa not given any formal conclusion on the first coin, which they were given a few years ago. Experts have studied it for a long time and they did not have a precise answer about the authenticity. A few days later I will have the opportunity to provide some photos of gold pieces in 1706. He has a dark recesses Orange patina, fairly thick. In my opinion, this is a sign of a very old coin. In my opinion, it was covered with an orange (red-brown) patina, its just been cleaned. Incidentally, one collector sells gold ducat in 1706, taken from the suspension of $ 50.000. He did not see the stamp did not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 25, 2010 Report Share Posted June 25, 2010 Червонец на Вольмаре не проходил экспертизу, по-моему. Насколько я понял, эксперты ГИМа не дали никакого официального заключения по первой монете, которая им давалась несколько лет назад. Эксперты очень долго его изучали и у них не было точного ответа о подлинности. Через несколько дней у меня появится возможность предоставить часть фото золотого червонца 1706 года. У него в углублениях темно оранжевая патина, довольно толстая. По-моему, это признак очень старой монеты. По-моему, она вся была покрыта оранжевой (красно-коричневой) патиной, просто её почистили. Кстати, один коллекционер продает золотой червонец 1706 года, снятый с подвески за 50.000 долларов. Его не видел, штемпель не знаю. ------------------ Chervonets at Wolmar does not pass inspection, in my opinion. As I understand it, experts GIMa not given any formal conclusion on the first coin, which they were given a few years ago. Experts have studied it for a long time and they did not have a precise answer about the authenticity. A few days later I will have the opportunity to provide some photos of gold pieces in 1706. He has a dark recesses Orange patina, fairly thick. In my opinion, this is a sign of a very old coin. In my opinion, it was covered with an orange (red-brown) patina, its just been cleaned. Incidentally, one collector sells gold ducat in 1706, taken from the suspension of $ 50.000. He did not see the stamp did not know. I look forward to seeing the pictures. --------------- Я с нетерпением ждем фотографий. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 grivna's russian is funny as much as sergio's english - with peace, one-kuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 ×àñòü ôîòî Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 ×àñòü ôîòî---------- Part photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 Ñåðåáðÿíûé ÷åðâîíåö 1706 ãîäà ÿâëÿåòñÿ íåîïîçíàííîé ìîíåòîé ðîññèéñêîé íóìèçìàòèêè. http://www.antiklib.ru/novosti/neopoznanny...umizmatike.html Ïðåæäå âñåãî èìååòñÿ ââèäó ÷åðâîíåö â ñåðåáðå òàêîãî æå øòåìïåëÿ, êàê è çîëîòîé. Îí íàõîäèòñÿ â Ýðìèòàæå. Óçäåííèêîâ åãî îïðåäåëèë êàê ïðîáíûé. Ó ýòèõ ÷åðâîíöåâ, êàê è ó îáñóæäàåìîãî çäåñü, íà ïîðòðåòå Ïåòðà 1 íåò îðäåíà. Íà ÷åðâîíöàõ â ñåðåáðå, ïðèçíàííûõ íîâîäåëàìè, íà ïîðòðåòå Ïåòðà 1 åñòü îðäåí. À ïî-ìîåìó, ýòî íå íîâîäåëû, à ïîäëèííûå ìîíåòû. ------------------ http://translate.google.ru/ ---------------- Silver chervonec 1706 coin is an unidentified Russian numismatics. http://www.antiklib.ru/novosti/neopoznanny...umizmatike.html First of all there is because of chervonec in silver of the same stamp as gold. It is located in the Hermitage. Uzdennikov it has identified as a test. These gold pieces, as in the discussion here, the portrait of Peter is not an order. On the chervonec in silver, recognized remake, the portrait of Peter is a medal. And in my opinion, this is not Novodels and genuine coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted June 27, 2010 Report Share Posted June 27, 2010 Äëÿ ìåíÿ î÷åíü âàæåí âîïðîñ î áóêâàõ. Ïî÷åìó òàêèõ æå áóêâ íåò íà äðóãèõ ìîíåòàõ ñî ñõîæåñòüþ íà 100%. Åñëè áû ýòî áûëî òàê, òî âîïðîñ ïîäëèííîñòè ðåøèëñÿ áû áûñòðî. Íî çäåñü áóêâû ñäåëàíû êàêèì-òî ñïåöèàëüíûì èíñòðóìåíòîì, òî åñòü îíè âûáèòû è âûðåçàíû èíäèâèäóàëüíî. --------------------- For me very important question about the letters. Why do these same letters are no other coins to the similarity of 100%. If this were so, the question of authenticity would have dared quickly. But this letter made some special tool that is, they carved and cut individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 ×åðâîíåö 1706 ãîäà âûñòàâëåí íà ïðîäàæó íà Ìîëîòêå. Öåíà îêîëî 20000 äîëëàðîâ. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?uid=19428708 Ïðîäàâåö âûñòàâèë åùå íåñêîëüêî ðåäêèõ ìîíåò. Ïîëòèííèê Àëåêñåÿ Ìèõàéëîâè÷à 1654 ãîäà (ìåäü). Êîïèÿ ñåðåáðÿíîãî ðóáëÿ 1654 ãîäà. Áîðîäîâîé çíàê 1699 ãîäà. Êîðàáåëüíèê XV âåê (ñåðåáðî). ------------------------- Chervonec in 1706 for sale at the Hammers. Price around 20000 dollars. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?uid=19428708 The seller put a few rare coins. Poltina Alexei Mikhailovich in 1654 (copper). A copy of the silver ruble in 1654. Borodovoy mark in 1699. Korabelnik XV century (silver). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 ×åðâîíåö 1706 ãîäà âûñòàâëåí íà ïðîäàæó íà Ìîëîòêå. Öåíà îêîëî 20000 äîëëàðîâ. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?uid=19428708 Ïðîäàâåö âûñòàâèë åùå íåñêîëüêî ðåäêèõ ìîíåò. Ïîëòèííèê Àëåêñåÿ Ìèõàéëîâè÷à 1654 ãîäà (ìåäü). Êîïèÿ ñåðåáðÿíîãî ðóáëÿ 1654 ãîäà. Áîðîäîâîé çíàê 1699 ãîäà. Êîðàáåëüíèê XV âåê (ñåðåáðî). ------------------------- Chervonec in 1706 for sale at the Hammers. Price around 20000 dollars. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?uid=19428708 The seller put a few rare coins. Poltina Alexei Mikhailovich in 1654 (copper). A copy of the silver ruble in 1654. Borodovoy mark in 1699. Korabelnik XV century (silver). All coins are of very questionable authenticity, some are suppose to be unique, offered by a seller with 0 reputation, on a Russian equivalent of eBay. I for one will stay away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterShell Posted September 29, 2010 Report Share Posted September 29, 2010 To tell the trouth wasn't reading all the 4 pages .. But love to say that there is a huge wave of very well done fakes of coins that are very hard to determine at first sight as original or copy. Technology is unique and results sometimes are so "good" that it is not like the previous fakes - you were able to see from 5 meters that it smells badly.. So guys selling something like that with "0" feedback are 100,00 % cheaters. With the fact, that any information can be obtain now by wider group of people than 10 years ago I don't belive in miracles that someone is not knowing what is he/she selling or miracles like obtaining from exchange for stamps, finding in garage etc.. So unless you don't have possibility to take it in to your hands - don't risk - no use. Esp without certain knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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