Hanging around....

[Oldman]

I am saddened to see this MS-xx grading pathology spreading from US coins to Russian coins.

Actually, me too. However, this is the things are and one can not just ignore it. Most collectors are also a little dealers and they want the best out of their money.

[Timofei]

Envy is a bad sin. I really do not get why and who says the coin is for sale? It is not for sale and it is not to be regraded as it will never travel outside Russia any more. I have been looking for a nice piece for years (btw it is harder to get in such condition than BM series). Now I found it and do not try to spoil the moment

 

I do not keep slabbed coins in my collection, that's the point, Oldman, all in all I have only 5 coins with slabs I did not break (which do are stored for sale or trade). I would however grade those coins at the time of selling, if that make more profit. My business is other field not coin trading. Different professional dealers (professional means the only business to them are coins), some present in this thread, indeed make constant regrading buying coins during coin shows and resubmitting it to NGC, by what they had said in Russian forums. Even from 1 point upgrade they make profit. It is ok to me, I don't care, good business.

 

What I do care is that a lot of collectors and dealers put too much trust in TPG not willing to improve their own knowledge and expertise. I am surprised to read such things: "Please note that I can not guarantee authenticity and grade of any coins, medals or other items that are not graded by a grading service." That are the words from professional dealers selling on ebay. What is that? That is brokerage, not professional coin trading.

 

I do not have any intention of regrading this coin, and I would like to see a better piece, so welcome Look at the last Markov, irregular toning, if not artificial -not appealing too me anyway. Believe or not, the coin itself is not rare (only popular and sought) but really nice pieces do not come to the market often. Myself I do not hope to improve it any time soon but I will be happy to make an offer for those who show 1797 rouble in better shape.

 

This is nice thread (and fun ) and for those interested in details of grading I advice to buy and read with good attention the books: "Photograde: Official Photographic Grading Guide for United States Coins, 19th Edition", "The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection Edition #2" and "The Official American Numismati Association Grading Standards For United States Coins". The books are cheap, but give a lot if info and thinking - ANA guys are really professional and you will note such things why 2 same MS-65 coins will bring huge difference in price when sold, how the coin must be graded and is usually graded and what is the reason and meaning behind those MS and AU figures.

[grivna1726]

What I do care is that a lot of collectors and dealers put too much trust in TPG not willing to improve their own knowledge and expertise. I am surprised to read such things: "Please note that I can not guarantee authenticity and grade of any coins, medals or other items that are not graded by a grading service." That are the words from professional dealers selling on ebay. What is that? That is brokerage, not professional coin trading.

 

Numeric grading is inappropriate for Russian coins.

 

Large US grading companies can assemble a Morgan Dollar set showing all grades because the Morgan Dollar is extremely common in UNC. So it is no problem to make a reference set to compare other Morgan dollars to reliably grade them.

 

Do PCGS, NGC or other grading companies have similar grading sets for 1797 roubles in all 11 MS grades? Maybe they do, but I think that is extremely unlikely. So how do they grade Russian coins?

 

Maybe they say "If this was a US coin, how would I grade it?". But it's not a US coin! So I think the MS-xx grade for Russian coins (especially Peter I - Alexander I coins), is based on nothing but hot air.

 

The numeric grade on the slab looks impressive, but is based on faulty assumptions and is therefore meaningless.

 

However, it is useful for selling coins at inflated prices to people who think that what the slab says is somehow reliable and has been determined with scientific precision.

 

What is sad is that there is now a whole generation of collectors who can't grade for themselves and think that some anonymous god-like "expert" at PCGS or NGC who can't tell the difference between "СПБ" and "CNB" has The Answer for them.

[Timofei]

Do PCGS, NGC or other grading companies have similar grading sets for 1797 roubles in all 11 MS grades? Maybe they do, but I think that is extremely unlikely. So how do they grade Russian coins?

 

 

How could they assemble this set if they graded 10 of these coins only. I do not doubt expertise of TPG, but I am sure that their expertise comes out of experience with US coins. Usually 1 grader of the 4 people crew spends 5-9 seconds for grade attribution, so 3 graders + releasing officer spend 20-45 seconds to define the grade. I guess it is more than enough for Morgan dollars - they are graded in hundreds of thousands so why spend more. Now compare that to 10 heavy roubles.

 

Universal principles of grading do apply to Russian coins but more than that Russian numismatics is far richer in the terms of rarity, variations and population.

 

Second important issue already mentioned in this thread - is the modern plague of regrading. When Oldman said he had Petrine VF35 coins in old slabs - he mentioned he would break them. From one hand an old slab means that the coins existed in the collection many years ago, before good modern fakes became abundant in the market. But on the other hand, now the grading advanced and what was VF35 can become AU! That make sense commercially however it does not change the coin. Recent years (when the prices jumped up) I noted many coins, especially 18 century, became regraded at much higher grade. That gives false impression and serves only for selling a coin at higher premium.

But apart from 1797 rouble, let's take 2 very common and cheap coins - 25 kop 1827 (the most common 25 kop after 1858) and Nikolai II coronation rouble. They are so many so that one can get the coins at very high grades at relatively low cost. I will post 2 coins at MS66 and MS64 with explanation. Both were taken out of slabs and clearly show the result of regrading. Somebody just graded the coins little bit higher than they should be and that gave false impression but higher price. One of the most important purposes of a slab is to make distant trade easier. But with regrading in mind - one cannot be sure that he pays what he has in mind. In US coins I think regrading cannot be so successful - there are plenty of coins to choose from and TPG know US coins better. Even in 5 years from now I do not see TPG become more experienced because there are not so many Russian coins to grade.

[Oldman]

Even in 5 years from now I do not see TPG become more experienced because there are not so many Russian coins to grade.

Actually, this is an interesting observation. In reality, you'll be surprised with the number of Russian coins surfacing every time in the US (auctions, private collections, etc.). Out of the this number , the vast majority is the low end stuff. However, some of the coins are getting graded and TPG services become more experienced mostly due to modern technology (they save photo images and share data between different TPGs) and popularity. I do not believe , BTW, the Russian coinage is more complicated then , say, British or German. It will take some time to gain grounds for the graders but not much, I hope.

Also, having a coin in a slab is the perfect way to store it (at least ) ! Even if you do not like what the holder says, the coin is the same.

[Timofei]

TPG services become more experienced mostly due to modern technology (they save photo images and share data between different TPGs) and popularity. I do not believe , BTW, the Russian coinage is more complicated then , say, British or German. It will take some time to gain grounds for the graders but not much, I hope.

 

Compared to the quantity of US coins graded to Russian or British or any other - there will always be huge distance. According to population report NGC graded 53 Paul I roubles and 6538 early dollars that is 123 times!!!! more.

 

When I mentioned complicated - I meant that technology changed so many times between 1700 and 1917 in Russia, in the US the period is shorter and therefore easier to formalize by rules of grading. Another factor is that Russian coins are naturally very popular in Russia, with the strict rules of export and much higher demand (and will to pay more money) the export of coins from Russia is hundred times less than import, this also adds to low quantity of Russian coins graded. I do not know if technical progress (photos etc.) will help a lot, because personal experience of a grader is the most important.

[WCO]

OK!

[Oldman]

<deleted>

WCO, I would not be that harsh on people who have different ideas.

[akdrv]

I have removed some off-topic comments.

 

Several recent topics have turned into endless shouting matches. I understand that some of you know each other from other forums and may have had disagreements in the past. I greatly appreciate your participation in this forum, but the off-topic duels have to stop.

 

Any further personal comments or insults will result in moderator post preview or a ban.

[grivna1726]

Any further personal comments or insults will result in moderator post preview or a ban.

 

 

I hope that won't be necessary.

 

This is a great board with many intelligent and informed contributors which I very much enjoy.

[gxseries]

Thanks akdrv - and I thought I was the only one who felt it was getting quite difficult to read.

[bobh]

[...snip...]

What is sad is that there is now a whole generation of collectors who can't grade for themselves and think that some anonymous god-like "expert" at PCGS or NGC who can't tell the difference between "СПБ" and "CNB" has The Answer for them.

I always cringe when I see that "CNB" or mintmaster "AT" on a slab ("artifically toned" ??? ).

 

However, this is obviously just a kludge because they haven't figured out how to print Cyrillic letters in the labelling system in use at the TPGs. And lower-case "П" written in an italic Cyrillic font (or in handwriting) looks just like a lower-case Latin "n". Since we have had the technology to write these characters on our PCs for about the last ten years now, it is surprising to me that they haven't sorted this one out yet.

 

What bothers me even more is to see a 1901 gold 5 rouble coin with no mintmaster attribution at all encased in a white slab which completely covers the edge. According to the most recent "Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society", the 1901-AP gold 5 rouble coin was offered only twice, whereas 1901-ФЗ was sold 53 times at all Conros auctions over the time period of Oct. 2002 up to now. That gives you an idea of the relative scarcity.

[Timofei]

Since we have had the technology to write these characters on our PCs for about the last ten years now, it is surprising to me that they haven't sorted this one out yet.

 

encased in a white slab which completely covers the edge.

 

I think that letters on tags would be much nicer if TPG did not invent anything but used plain and simple transliteration: SPB, AG, FC (not OY?). Would be useful to those dealers and collectors who do not know how to read Russian letters.

 

Second thing which is a must - is weight, which must be indicated on a tag.

 

Edge - that is a difficult matter indeed. A fellow collector in Moscow has full collection of Nikolai 2 poltinas and roubles (ALL in MS and PF) with all edge varietes except plains. He keeps all slabbed coins in their slabs. When I had very rare edge variety in my hand I could not but feel something strange - you have one of the rarest coins and the only mean to know it is read tag letters. That is a strange feeling because you deal with assumption and TPG info that the coin is rare rather than the direct look and feel of those rare edge letters. I wonder what the feeling is when you break the slab after many years and find out you were mistaken all that time and letters on the tag was misprint. But other than that - covering edge makes the collector ignorant about particular specifics of the original coin and makes learning impossible. A heavy rouble has diffucult edge to counterfeit, but that is different on 19 cent coins - somtimes the edge is the only mean to tell the fake. See-through slab is the only solution.

[bobh]

I think that letters on tags would be much nicer if TPG did not invent anything but used plain and simple transliteration: SPB, AG, FC (not OY?). Would be useful to those dealers and collectors who do not know how to read Russian letters.

Perhaps -- but I wonder how many collectors of Russian coins can't read at least the Cyrillic letters, even if they cannot speak the language? The idea seems strange to me.

 

Besides, Latin letters are pronounced differently in some languages ... for example, "ФЗ" in English would be written "FZ". In German, however, "FZ" would be pronounced like "ФЦ" in Russian, so you have to write: "FS" to pronounce the right way. But this would be wrong in English, etc. I think Cyrillic is best because that is what you see on the coin, so there is no guessing.

 

Second thing which is a must - is weight, which must be indicated on a tag.

Agreed!

 

A fellow collector in Moscow has full collection of Nikolai 2 poltinas and roubles (ALL in MS and PF) with all edge varietes except plains.

;)

 

He keeps all slabbed coins in their slabs. When I had very rare edge variety in my hand I could not but feel something strange - you have one of the rarest coins and the only mean to know it is read tag letters. That is a strange feeling because you deal with assumption and TPG info that the coin is rare rather than the direct look and feel of those rare edge letters. I wonder what the feeling is when you break the slab after many years and find out you were mistaken all that time and letters on the tag was misprint. But other than that - covering edge makes the collector ignorant about particular specifics of the original coin and makes learning impossible. A heavy rouble has difficult edge to counterfeit, but that is different on 19 cent coins - somtimes the edge is the only mean to tell the fake. See-through slab is the only solution.

Fortunately, NGC has just started making these about a year ago.

[Timofei]

Perhaps -- but I wonder how many collectors of Russian coins can't read at least the Cyrillic letters, even if they cannot speak the language? The idea seems strange to me.

 

TPG apply universal principles of grading therefore it should be universal principle of naming the coins on tags. Imagine Chinese or Japanese coins.

I doubt it is practical to use national letters while English is the univrsally accepted - I think the graders will spend too much time trying to type strange alphabets. Collectors in Russian numismatics must know Cyrillic letters, but there are many dealers who sell sch coins occasionally without going into details, there is eBay where English letters are used and will be understood by everybody.

[Oldman]

NGC and PCGS are working hard to meet the standards and I strongly believe they are making everything possible at this time to be as precise as possible. Lets be fair to them and follow our path.

 

Best regards,

[marv]

Compared to the quantity of US coins graded to Russian or British or any other - there will always be huge distance. According to population report NGC graded 53 Paul I roubles and 6538 early dollars that is 123 times!!!! more.

 

When I mentioned complicated - I meant that technology changed so many times between 1700 and 1917 in Russia, in the US the period is shorter and therefore easier to formalize by rules of grading. Another factor is that Russian coins are naturally very popular in Russia, with the strict rules of export and much higher demand (and will to pay more money) the export of coins from Russia is hundred times less than import, this also adds to low quantity of Russian coins graded. I do not know if technical progress (photos etc.) will help a lot, because personal experience of a grader is the most important.

 

I will chime in here. As a collector, I strive for coins that catch my eye. This makes it difficult for me to buy coins from all periods as really nice unc coins from early periods are prohibitively expensive. So I try to get nice coins within my price range that really excite me. I have been able to buy a few Russian coins that filled the "bill" so to speak, at a time before the craze for Russian coins really took hold. Right now, I probably couldn't afford the several Russian coins I own. But I vew TPG as an aid when looking through a large number of coins. Without getting into the details as to what actually separates a 64 from a 63, or a 65 from a 64, I KNOW that a coin in an NGC or PCGS MS65 (or PF65) will most likely be a nice coin. And I am even more sure that a coin in a 66 holder will be a nice coin, so this helps me when looking through an auction catalog and trying to decide on what to look at in person. I still have to see the coin as I might not like it even if it is technically a 65 (or 66 - but probably would like a 66). One still has to exercise judgement and look closely at the coin. Years ago, I bought an 1826 Rouble in an NGC67 holder. It is an amazing coin, flawless and with beautiful toning. I have never seen another like it. I theorize that it was a mint sample that got sold off by the Soviet regime at some point. So, in sum, for me the slab just helps me separate the wheat from the chaff. Would the 67 be as nice out of the slab? Sure, but the slab also becomes a confidence builder for the uneducated and helps a coin appeal to the widest possible audience at the time of a sale, thereby getting a higher price.

[Timofei]

I theorize that it was a mint sample that got sold off by the Soviet regime at some point. So, in sum, for me the slab just helps me separate the wheat from the chaff. Would the 67 be as nice out of the slab? Sure, but the slab also becomes a confidence builder for the uneducated and helps a coin appeal to the widest possible audience at the time of a sale, thereby getting a higher price.

 

Well, you got yourself a perfect coin then. Such MS coin would bring 7000-8000 or more, a PF - 21000+ easily if sold now. Slabbed or not it stays perfect.

 

At the time of sale a slabbed coin would have wider appeal, that is for sure. But that applies only when you decide to sell it away (cost of regrading would be nothing compared to the price of the coin). After you buy it or when you keep it - plastic serves only as one of the possible means of state preservation. Possibly the safest way, but not the most comfortable, imho.