1838 1 kop on ebay?

[BKB]

What do you think: fake or novodel? Item number: 280076406984

 

I think it is a fake. The coin is very different from known originals. He is also selling a 2 kop twin of this coin under Item number: 280076406984.

 

 

[WCO]

At first glance looks OK to me, but I have not compared to genuine pieces.

 

WCO

[RW Julian]

What do you think: fake or novodel? Item number: 280076406984

 

I think it is a fake. The coin is very different from known originals. He is also selling a 2 kop twin of this coin under Item number: 280076406984.

I attach a picture of a known original for comparison.

 

 

The coin shown here is an overdate (1838/7). This coin is very rare and the only pieces I have seen (two or three) in person have had the overdate. The eBay one does not. There was a piece, however, in Giessener Münzhandlung sale 109 that may be from the same dies as the eBay specimen.

 

It is worth noting, perhaps, that the two major copper sales held by Monety i Medali in the past couple of years did not contain the 1838 EM kopeck.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

I attach a picture of a known original for comparison.

 

...

 

The coin shown here is an overdate (1838/7). This coin is very rare and the only pieces I have seen (two or three) in person have had the overdate. The eBay one does not. There was a piece, however, in Giessener Münzhandlung sale 109 that may be from the same dies as the eBay specimen.

 

It is worth noting, perhaps, that the two major copper sales held by Monety i Medali in the past couple of years did not contain the 1838 EM kopeck.

 

RWJ

 

And what is a point to compare two different coins? First is a Novodel Class 2 (i.e. struck with new dies), and second one is original striking (rare). They could have very different details one from another. It would be interesting to compare sold coin to other known Novodels though.

 

WCO

[RW Julian]

And what is a point to compare two different coins? First is a Novodel Class 2 (i.e. struck with new dies), and second one is original striking (rare). They could have very different details one from another. It would be interesting to compare sold coin to other known Novodels though.

WCO

The point is that the dies would have been prepared with the same hubs, even though they are clearly different dies. The statement that the eBay coin is "a Novodel Class 2" is by no means a certainty as the special strikes from this era (in proof or proof-like) could well be contemporary. The quality of the eBay photograph is so poor, however, that perhaps any comparison is of little value. It would be useful to publish the special strikes from this era in high-quality photographs but I do not have any of these on hand.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

The point is that the dies would have been prepared with the same hubs, even though they are clearly different dies. The statement that the eBay coin is "a Novodel Class 2" is by no means a certainty as the special strikes from this era (in proof or proof-like) could well be contemporary. The quality of the eBay photograph is so poor, however, that perhaps any comparison is of little value. It would be useful to publish the special strikes from this era in high-quality photographs but I do not have any of these on hand.

 

RWJ

 

RWJ, thank you for explaining.

 

I am not sure that "the dies would have been prepared with the same hubs", they could be prepared even using a new model, depending from what mint had available (dies, hubs master dies, model) at the time of making Novodels. Correct me if I am wrong here.

 

Can't agree more on your statement that "the quality of the eBay photograph is so poor, however, that perhaps any comparison is of little value". Just not possible to say anything for sure, after "first look" briefly at the coin on e-bay (when I thought the coin is OK) I opened books, since it is a rare coin indeed and I wanted to research it. And now I am not sure at all and may be BKB was right, it may be a fake coin as well.

 

Novodels of this date appear for me to be quite scarce too, much scarcer than all references indicate.

 

WCO

[RW Julian]

RWJ, thank you for explaining.

I am not sure that "the dies would have been prepared with the same hubs", they could be prepared even using a new model, depending from what mint had available (dies, hubs master dies, model) at the time of making Novodels. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Can't agree more on your statement that "the quality of the eBay photograph is so poor, however, that perhaps any comparison is of little value". Just not possible to say anything for sure, after "first look" briefly at the coin on e-bay (when I thought the coin is OK) I opened books, since it is a rare coin indeed and I wanted to research it. And now I am not sure at all and may be BKB was right, it may be a fake coin as well.

Novodels of this date appear for me to be quite scarce too, much scarcer than all references indicate.

WCO

The problem is that we are not quite certain when the special pieces were made. One source of information is the Blank collection, which was sold in 1908. He had numerous sets of the special strikes from the EM and CM mints and, for example, had all four of the 1838 EM coins in "proof." The original 1838 EM in this sale brought 10 roubles, a high price for the time, whereas the 1838 "proof" set of the four coins brought 11 roubles.

 

Considering the number of these special pieces in the Blank collection, it is hard to believe that so many different dates and denominations were made at a later time. My opinion is that many of these, and perhaps most, were contemporary and not novodels as the term is used today. There are of course opposite opinions on this subject and it will not be until the Ekaterinburg mint papers have been throughly studied that we may get definitive answers to such questions.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

The problem is that we are not quite certain when the special pieces were made. One source of information is the Blank collection, which was sold in 1908. He had numerous sets of the special strikes from the EM and CM mints and, for example, had all four of the 1838 EM coins in "proof." The original 1838 EM in this sale brought 10 roubles, a high price for the time, whereas the 1838 "proof" set of the four coins brought 11 roubles.

 

Considering the number of these special pieces in the Blank collection, it is hard to believe that so many different dates and denominations were made at a later time. My opinion is that many of these, and perhaps most, were contemporary and not novodels as the term is used today. There are of course opposite opinions on this subject and it will not be until the Ekaterinburg mint papers have been throughly studied that we may get definitive answers to such questions.

 

RWJ

 

There were for sure events when Novodels were made in quantities and for many different coins. One such event was large order for Industrial fair of 1870. It is known that at Ekaterinburg mint only official orders from the Treasury (for Novodels) were registered. There could be large number of more or less big "private" orders for Novodels that are missing in Ekaterinburg papers, so I am afraid even study of Ekaterinburg mint papers will not answer all the questions.

 

Best regards,

 

WCO