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1798 10 kopecks on eBay – Genuine ?


RW Julian
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I have some problems with the following coin:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-I-10-Kopeks-1798-...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

In particular the letters P (Pi) and E of KOPECKS as well as the 7 and 9 of 1798 appear to be poorly made and unlike those on genuine originals. I add photos of two 1798 10 kopeck pieces, one of the SM mint and the other SP. Anyone else have problems with the eBay coin?

 

RWJ

 

1798bk7.jpg

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I was about to bid on that since that is the last silver coin that I need for my Pavel I silver coin. I too had doubts about that coin since the location of the letters of the mintmasters dodn't look right at all. The letter 'b' with a line across it in the letter kop(b)eck kinda of threw me off completely as there should be a slight downwards tick and the illustration doesn't show it.

 

Speaking of which, anyone has a damaged 10 kopek coin for me to finish this typeset? :ninja: Funny enough, it's usually the poltina and polupolutinnik that are much more notorious to find.

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I bid the minimum on it, but I also have questions about it. That is why I want to get it for a minimum to see what is really going on. My problems:

 

1. Misallignment of the 2 dies in relation to one another.

 

2. Mintmark and mm initials are suspicious

 

3. The top surface of the letters and numbers is not smooth which indicates mechanical grinding vs. hand engraving.

 

It would still be nice to hold it personally for a final verdict.

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im a little new at spotting fakes, but after staring and staring, the lettering on the ebay coin does not match either example of RWJ. The top surface of the letters look rounded, as if cast, not square and sharp.

 

My guess is casting of original coin.

 

As a side note, i bought a 1798 AM polushka that had some funny silvery corrosion between the letters. Upon close exam, it seemed to be residue from lead or some other casting material, as if a mold was made of the coin, and then the coin was then sold on ebay when no longer needed. the bits of lead just flaked off when picked with a plastic tool, leaving original patina untouched underneath.

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I think that is a poor fake. Like many other items sold / being sold by this seller.

 

I also think it is fake. I looked at some past sales and think that at least some of them have been chemically toned to give the impression of age when they were probably made in recent years. ;)

 

I wonder if many or all of them have been purchased on ebay in the past and are now being resold, possibly in good faith. :ninja:

 

I am becoming quite concerned by the number of fake Russian coins now being offered in online auctions (and sometimes, as recently discussed here, being offered in auctions by established dealers who really ought to know better). It seems like it's really starting to get out of control and can only hurt collectors. ;)

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im a little new at spotting fakes, but after staring and staring, the lettering on the ebay coin does not match either example of RWJ. The top surface of the letters look rounded, as if cast, not square and sharp.

 

My guess is casting of original coin.

 

As a side note, i bought a 1798 AM polushka that had some funny silvery corrosion between the letters. Upon close exam, it seemed to be residue from lead or some other casting material, as if a mold was made of the coin, and then the coin was then sold on ebay when no longer needed. the bits of lead just flaked off when picked with a plastic tool, leaving original patina untouched underneath.

 

RWJ and I have been discussing over the past couple days. I agree w. squirell, probably a cast fake.

 

First, as others have noted, are the lumps on the details and in particular the wreath. quite charateristic of cast, but could also be a piece struck from cast-mold or spark-erosion dies.

 

I think the thing that seals for me it as cast are the odd circular lines on the obv and rev - looks like the impression from a casting gate. If you highlight the lines in photoshop and then do an overlay, the circular lines line up, albeit with the rev off-center to the obv. Very strange. I'd hazzard a guess that the obv and rev of the mold were cast separately and then joined slightly off-center.

 

Also, if you remove the embossed leatherette background and replace it with a flat white, you can see just how crude this piece is. The fact that the coin was shot or placed on this background suggests to me that it was done deliberately. This is just the sort of thing to do if you what to optically obscure the coin's surface.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230056502081

 

This is a previous sale from the same seller. The wear on this coin looks too even and consistent, as if buffed out. Another of the same "mintmaster-mind" behind the cast fakes?

It gets better. Look at the following piece offered on German eBay:

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/RUSSLAND-1-Rubel-1729-P...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

It appears to be the same piece but buffed even more. On the other hand it may be a cast virtually identical to the coin noted by squirrel. The odd thing about this coin is the heavy wear (or weak strike) on the obverse compared to the reverse. The weak area at the upper left of the obverse should show a corresponding weak area on the reverse (upper right) but does not. All in all, a strange coin.

 

In the U.S. eBay auction it was bought by a U.S. buyer for $405 plus postage. It is at €112 in the German auction from a German seller.

 

Comments ?

 

RWJ

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Apparently there is a huge batch of Peter II rubles coming out from China. Most of them I see are dated 1728 though.

Not all of them! Look at this one and then compare it to the two other 1729 rubles shown in the preceding messages:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fine-Russia-1729-Disap...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Amazing how virtually identical coins can be offered in Germany and China at the same time.

 

RWJ

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GX, are the fake 1728's from china cast, as these seem to be?

 

If not, wouldnt a great deal of capital investement be required to counterfeit these coins? Prices for these coins are going nuts as we know, but the market for these coins is miniscule, compared to, say, the fake rolex or designer handbag, both of which are not only higher demand, but easy to knock off for our industrious friends in china!

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squirrel, suprisingly the level of investment is amazingly low. I have seen and have a counterfeit Chinese 1 yuan, which is just a miserable 13US cents according to the rate today.

 

If I remember right, the traditional of engraving on stone or metals have been relatively cheap, such as engraving a family's surname. This used to be done as most Chinese familes and officials needed such seal for documents. Such seals often cost less than 20USD. To engrave a coin design compared to a family's surname just takes more time but very doable.

 

Casting on the other hand has been done for too long such as Japanese Meiji era silver coins. You often see them going at just 20USD. I'm not too sure why this scearnio is impossible: one "brilliant" Chinese crook saw that the Russian market is going too hot at the moment and decided that marketing counterfeit coins are profitable. I would if I am such a crook.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/Roubel-1728-Peter-2_W0...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Another cast 1728? Also, this guys Peter 1 looks fishy.

He also sold two 1896 Coronation roubles recently. The photos are identical for two pieces that are supposed to be different:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230052033997

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230057019004

 

RWJ

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I think ill pass on buying the pricey stuff, sight unseen on ebay. Besides, ugly coins need love too.

 

RWJ.. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. Back in 1988, there was a very well written supplement that appeared with "coin world" titled "From Rus to Revolution, Russian Coins through a thousand years" I think you know the author.

 

This was my introduction to the history of Russian coinage, and in fact, to Russian History itself, and was the beginning of many years, on and off, of collecting russian coins, and an interest in Russian Language, history, and culture. It is the best overview of russian numismatics i have ever read, and i keep the tattered newsprint booklet on my bookshelf. I have made a point to even collect (if possible!) the examples you chose to illustrate the supplement!

 

Its great to meet you on this forum, and i thought i would say thank you.

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I think ill pass on buying the pricey stuff, sight unseen on ebay. Besides, ugly coins need love too.

 

RWJ.. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you. Back in 1988, there was a very well written supplement that appeared with "coin world" titled "From Rus to Revolution, Russian Coins through a thousand years" I think you know the author.

 

This was my introduction to the history of Russian coinage, and in fact, to Russian History itself, and was the beginning of many years, on and off, of collecting russian coins, and an interest in Russian Language, history, and culture. It is the best overview of russian numismatics i have ever read, and i keep the tattered newsprint booklet on my bookshelf. I have made a point to even collect (if possible!) the examples you chose to illustrate the supplement!

 

Its great to meet you on this forum, and i thought i would say thank you.

Thanks. Now I know that at least one person read the article!

 

RWJ

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He also sold two 1896 Coronation roubles recently. The photos are identical for two pieces that are supposed to be different:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230052033997

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230057019004

 

RWJ

 

All these three coins look like cast copies to me. Metal structure and toning speak for themself.

What can I say on the number of fakes on the market ? ...they are coming ! :ninja:

This is just another reason why I predict that fall of 2008 will be the time when this level of prices will start falling. Number of fakes will lead to a descrease of interest; then , to a lower number of potential buyers and , eventually, to the price fall.

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All these three coins look like cast copies to me. Metal structure and toning speak for themself.

What can I say on the number of fakes on the market ? ...they are coming ! :ninja:

This is just another reason why I predict that fall of 2008 will be the time when this level of prices will start falling. Number of fakes will lead to a descrease of interest; then , to a lower number of potential buyers and , eventually, to the price fall.

 

 

Surely this is a picture of one coin, not 2. Maybe one of the buyers did not pay or agreed something else with the seller. The coin on the pcture is original, not a cast fake.

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry to break you the negative news but there's your money gone. It's not genuine.

 

I too am looking for Pavel I 10 kopek to finish my silver coin type set but will not be crazy enough to get a counterfeit to fill it. Damaged coin, sure but not counterfeit. Now how hard can a 10kopek be when I have a poltina and polupoltinnik to go with the silver coin set :ninja: Usually it's the other way around!

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What do You think about following coin:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...59995%26fvi%3D1

The names of sellers are very similar; I think they are same person.

I bought it lately, but still haven`t got it.

 

It looks like a counterfeit, like other Russian coins offered by this seller. I recommend you try to get your money back.

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