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How long do you think this one circulated?


bobh
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(WARNING: The following images are not for the faint-hearted -- parental guidance is recommended before viewing them!) :ninja:

 

Mistreated Romanov rouble (Conros auction)

 

Obviously, there is much more wear on this coin aside from the numerous filing test marks on the reverse -- assuming that is what they are -- than could have been acquired in the short time between 1913 and 1917. I have heard that the early Soviet government outlawed private ownership of gold and silver coins, but I assume that these still circulated on the black market and for private negotiations?

 

I've been looking at Molotok and Conros for a short time now and have noticed that most of the Romanov roubles from the Russian sites seem to show much more wear than any sold on eBay or in Western auctions. I assume that this is because they continued to circulate, whereas the ones that found their way into the western countries were in much better shape, and stayed that way.

 

Does anyone have any statistics as to how long silver coins in general continued to circulate in Russia after 1917?

 

Thanks! ;)

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Factor in being carried as a pocket piece, and it all fits in. Realistically bronze and silver coins from the Tsarist era stopped circulating in 1917 when inflation took over.

 

Gold coins, hoarded probably continued to see "unofficial" trade right on through the whole of the USSR era, I have read accounts of them trading during WWII in black market situations. I was offered 5 Rubles coins on the street in the USSR in 1991.

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I have no answer to your question, but wonder if all the wear is due to circulation. I think I see traces of mount removal, especially when zooming in at 12 o'clock.

 

That said, I'd be surprised if Imperial silver coins were not hidden away or covertly traded on the black market.

They would also serve as a way of escaping compulsory currency revaluation/exchange and demonetization of older paper money.

 

Certainly the number of US gold coins which surfaced in Europe when gold ownership was once again made legal for US citizens suggests widespread noncompliance with the 1933 demand that they be turned in to the government. No doubt Russians would quietly resist similar measures.

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Also, the Soviet government issued silver coins to the old Imperial standard in an effort to revive the economy and stabilize the exchange value of the rouble with the RSFSR & USSR issues of 1921-31.

 

I assume those were recalled once the Communist grip on power was secure.

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(WARNING: The following images are not for the faint-hearted -- parental guidance is recommended before viewing them!) :ninja:

 

Mistreated Romanov rouble (Conros auction)

 

Obviously, there is much more wear on this coin aside from the numerous filing test marks on the reverse -- assuming that is what they are -- than could have been acquired in the short time between 1913 and 1917. I have heard that the early Soviet government outlawed private ownership of gold and silver coins, but I assume that these still circulated on the black market and for private negotiations?

 

I've been looking at Molotok and Conros for a short time now and have noticed that most of the Romanov roubles from the Russian sites seem to show much more wear than any sold on eBay or in Western auctions. I assume that this is because they continued to circulate, whereas the ones that found their way into the western countries were in much better shape, and stayed that way.

 

Does anyone have any statistics as to how long silver coins in general continued to circulate in Russia after 1917?

 

Thanks! ;)

 

In my childhood there were some popular gambling games to play with coins. I unable to translate names of the games correctly from Russian to English, but on Russian they were called "Пристенок" и "Расшибалка". And those games were very popular in first half of 20-th Century, before World War II. In my childhood I used to see many very worn, bumped, etc. Rubles and 50 Kopeck coins used in such games. May be that damaged 1913 Ruble is this kind of coin and its bad shape is not the result of circulation.

 

WCO

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One novel where I remember a bit about Nikolai II 5 Rubles coins was Babi Yar about the German occupation of Ukraine during the war of 1941-45. Old Imperial gold coins circulated a bit during that time, because they had a high value and could be used to buy food or other capital goods otherwise unobtainable even for USSR or German currency.

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I found some more info about game "Pristenok" and intersesting Russian site with discassion of different damaged Russian coinage. For those of you who can read Russian here is a related poetry and a link to the web-site:

 

http://kladoiskatel.spb.ru/cgi-bin/forum/Y...0167740;start=0

 

 

Ирина Сидоренко

 

Послевоенная безотцовщина

 

Моей маме Екатерине Ильиничне,

её поколению

 

 

Бежали шалуны

На заводскую площадь,

Чтоб о конце войны

Кричать там что есть мочи!

 

И сердце из груди

В них нетерпеньем дышит.

Тропинки по пути

Все палочкой испишут:

 

Вот "Гитлер", вот "капут!" –

Всё просто и понятно.

И с криками бегут

Счастливые ребята!

 

*

По пять копеек ребятня

Кладёт на кон. Игра!

И долго-долго у плетня

Толчётся детвора.

 

Поставят деньги сверх черты

И с криком: "сОстав!" – бьют.

Блестят глаза, смеются рты,

Вихры дают салют.

 

От бляшки пятаки дрожат

И падают орлом.

Рука тверда и меток взгляд –

Мы так фашистов бьём!

 

Василий носит гордый чуб,

Годится им в отцы:

– А ну-ка разменяйте рубль!

Сыграем-ка, мальцы! –

 

Он без царапинки с фронтов

Вернулся полный сил.

К любой работе был готов –

Кудряв, плечист, красив.

 

Но что-то меткий наш боец

Проигрывать горазд?

И рад ободранный малец,

Пополнив свой запас.

 

Теперь есть деньги на кино

С мороженым – ура!

И хитро щурится в окно

"Продувший" ветеран.

 

...

 

WCO

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For those of you who can read Russian here is a related poetry and a link to the web-site:

 

http://kladoiskatel.spb.ru/cgi-bin/forum/Y...0167740;start=0

 

 

Ирина Сидоренко

 

Послевоенная безотцовщина

 

Моей маме Екатерине Ильиничне,

её поколению

Бежали шалуны

На заводскую площадь,

Чтоб о конце войны

Кричать там что есть мочи!

 

И сердце из груди

В них нетерпеньем дышит.

Тропинки по пути

Все палочкой испишут:

 

Вот "Гитлер", вот "капут!" –

Всё просто и понятно.

И с криками бегут

Счастливые ребята!

 

*

По пять копеек ребятня

Кладёт на кон. Игра!

И долго-долго у плетня

Толчётся детвора.

 

Поставят деньги сверх черты

И с криком: "сОстав!" – бьют.

Блестят глаза, смеются рты,

Вихры дают салют.

 

От бляшки пятаки дрожат

И падают орлом.

Рука тверда и меток взгляд –

Мы так фашистов бьём!

 

Василий носит гордый чуб,

Годится им в отцы:

– А ну-ка разменяйте рубль!

Сыграем-ка, мальцы! –

 

Он без царапинки с фронтов

Вернулся полный сил.

К любой работе был готов –

Кудряв, плечист, красив.

 

Но что-то меткий наш боец

Проигрывать горазд?

И рад ободранный малец,

Пополнив свой запас.

 

Теперь есть деньги на кино

С мороженым – ура!

И хитро щурится в окно

"Продувший" ветеран.

 

...

 

WCO

 

Very interesting, since I am currently reading Ivan's War, about the War of 1941-45 or GPW. There is a discussion in there about the ribald songs which had arisen from such common tunes as my favourite - Katyusha. The authorities at the time prohibited the publishing of the popular, yet not quite politically correct adaptations of the songs.

 

Of course poetry such as the above was quite common too, this one is not quite bawdy enough to have been prohibited.

 

Вот "Гитлер", вот "капут!" Yep, sitting in the FSB Office in some drawer now!

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I found some more info about game "Pristenok" and intersesting Russian site with discassion of different damaged Russian coinage. For those of you who can read Russian here is a related poetry and a link to the web-site:

 

http://kladoiskatel.spb.ru/cgi-bin/forum/Y...0167740;start=0

 

[snip]

 

WCO

Thanks, WCO ... (bobh now getting out his three Russian dictionaries, beginning to sweat a bit...) :ninja:

 

Can you describe what kind of game this is, please? Even if we don't understand all the details, it would be nice to know how the coins were used: e.g. as tokens to mark some position on a board, or as a kind of gambling chip, etc. ... ?

 

Пока! ;)

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Ouch! Fortunately none of them seem to be rare.

 

Unusual isn't it. I would think that since it is supposed to circulate for less than 4 years it should be found in relatively "OK" condition. I guess someone took it as a pocket piece and wore it down.

 

Reminds me of the good days - I got one Romanov ruble for just silver bullion value at that time - 5 dollars or something including shipping.

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Ouch! Fortunately none of them seem to be rare.

 

Unusual isn't it. I would think that since it is supposed to circulate for less than 4 years it should be found in relatively "OK" condition. I guess someone took it as a pocket piece and wore it down.

 

Reminds me of the good days - I got one Romanov ruble for just silver bullion value at that time - 5 dollars or something including shipping.

A coin which has as much wear and damage as depicted -- regardless of rarity or type -- shouldn't be worth any more than bullion value (of course, you have to first find a buyer who will even GIVE you bullion for that! :ninja: )

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Thanks, WCO ... (bobh now getting out his three Russian dictionaries, beginning to sweat a bit...) :ninja:

 

Can you describe what kind of game this is, please? Even if we don't understand all the details, it would be nice to know how the coins were used: e.g. as tokens to mark some position on a board, or as a kind of gambling chip, etc. ... ?

 

Пока! ;)

 

I am pretty sure that all Russians of my age are familiar with these games. They were part of that life, every boy used to play it. Relatively big money were "earned" or lost in this kind of games.

 

In "Pristenok" coins are bumped against the wall and the idea is to move your coin as far as possible from the wall so it would be difficult for the next player to do the following. Next player have to try to put his coin after ricocheting from the wall as close to your coin as possible. If the distance between the coins is less then one can reach by using thumb and the pointing finger then he wins the coins.

 

In "Rashibalka" several coins were put one on another up let's say tails. Heavy Ruble (like silver 1913) was used to bump the batch hard. All the coins that turned from tails to heads were won.

 

You see how easy coins could acquire damage and wear. Just one day of such a play is like 10 years of circulation. ;)

 

WCO

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I am pretty sure that all Russians of my age are familiar with these games. They were part of that life, every boy used to play it. Relatively big money were "earned" or lost in this kind of games.

 

In "Pristenok" coins are bumped against the wall and the idea is to move your coin as far as possible from the wall so it would be difficult for the next player to do the following. Next player have to try to put his coin after ricocheting from the wall as close to your coin as possible. If the distance between the coins is less then one can reach by using thumb and the pointing finger then he wins the coins.

 

In "Rashibalka" several coins were put one on another up let's say tails. Heavy Ruble (like silver 1913) was used to bump the batch hard. All the coins that turned from tails to heads were won.

 

You see how easy coins could acquire damage and wear. Just one day of such a play is like 10 years of circulation. ;)

 

WCO

Thanks, WCO! :ninja:

I'm sure this brought back some memories for you (hopefully, pleasant ones!) ;)

 

All this throwing about of old coins ... did these games also have an element of "political correctness" associated with them? After all, the coin in question here did have images of the last Tsar and his ancestor on the obverse ... "the more beat-up, the better" ... ???

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All this throwing about of old coins ... did these games also have an element of "political correctness" associated with them? After all, the coin in question here did have images of the last Tsar and his ancestor on the obverse ... "the more beat-up, the better" ... ???

 

:ninja:

 

I would much rather want to find a beaten up 1924 worker ruble

 

;)

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Thanks, WCO! :ninja:

I'm sure this brought back some memories for you (hopefully, pleasant ones!) ;)

 

All this throwing about of old coins ... did these games also have an element of "political correctness" associated with them? After all, the coin in question here did have images of the last Tsar and his ancestor on the obverse ... "the more beat-up, the better" ... ???

 

No one cared about "political correctness", 1924 Rubles were used more often at my time just because were more common in 1960's than Nicholas II Rubles. And these games are known hundered years back. At that time most of coins used to play were legal tender.

 

WCO

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