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1914 Gangut rouble in proof?


worldcoinguy
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It would be good for the coin and for the buyer.

 

Mr. Shiryakov from GIM told me that he think that he can distinguish between original (1914 and 1916) and 1927 novodel. However that was not very convincing for me.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut.

You are correct, Oldman! ;)

 

Here is the information I have from the book by V.V. Kazakov. He lists three variants, one original and two novodels:

 

No. 472, original version (in regular strike and also in proof).

"Almost all mintage re-fused [i.e. melted down]. Only about 150 coins remain."

 

No. 473, novodel (no date or issuing entity is given)

Obverse: proof

Reverse: regular strike

 

No. 474, novodel -- struck in 1927 by the Soviet Philatelic Association

Obverse: regular strike

Reverse: proof [the English translation is wrong here].

 

If both sides are proof, then this would indeed be a very rare coin! :ninja:

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You are correct, Oldman! ;)

 

Here is the information I have from the book by V.V. Kazakov. He lists three variants, one original and two novodels:

 

No. 472, original version (in regular strike and also in proof).

"Almost all mintage re-fused [i.e. melted down]. Only about 150 coins remain."

 

No. 473, novodel (no date or issuing entity is given)

Obverse: proof

Reverse: regular strike

 

No. 474, novodel -- struck in 1927 by the Soviet Philatelic Association

Obverse: regular strike

Reverse: proof [the English translation is wrong here].

 

If both sides are proof, then this would indeed be a very rare coin! :ninja:

 

Thanks !

I guess I need to check my old collection and reference books more often ... it's been awhile ;)

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Thanks !

I guess I need to check my old collection and reference books more often ... it's been awhile ;)

You're welcome! :ninja:

 

The Kazakov book was published only in 2004 ... I'm not sure how much of his data was referenced in earlier works. It contains some material which many people would regard as "explosive" (for example, the Brussels trial pattern roubles of 1897 do not exist according to him, but are merely error coins with broken stars on the edge).

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut.

 

If 1 side proof and the other regular - definitely novodel.

If both sides proof or both sides regular - could be a novodel or original. This info is published by Uzdenikov. I have CFA brochure with price lists dd 1927 - they sold different types however price list does not mention 'mule' coins.

 

I do not know why a Gangut rouble has horizontal tooling scratches on the edge border. Even the poor picture shows it.

 

As to the trust... In my let's say 'library' I have GIM expert resolution of authenticity for the fake coin and fake resolution for an original. :ninja: So I trust no one ;) especially description in an auction catalog. I am not implying that Heritage sells fake coin however as I cannot have any opinion about a picture without the coin itself.

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You're welcome! :ninja:

 

The Kazakov book was published only in 2004 ... I'm not sure how much of his data was referenced in earlier works. It contains some material which many people would regard as "explosive" (for example, the Brussels trial pattern roubles of 1897 do not exist according to him, but are merely error coins with broken stars on the edge).

 

Thanks again ! Can someone please tell me where this new book (Mr Kazakov) can be found?

The Oldman

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They did not - Heritage did !

 

 

I disagree. Look more closely, Oldman.

 

PCGS has authenticated an 1834 Alexander I Monument rouble as an 1839 Borodino. :ninja:

 

If PCGS can't tell the difference between those 2 coins, is it really unfair to wonder what the value of their certification is when it comes to such things?

 

Heritage has apparently just listed the coin with PCGS's attribution, thus repeating the error. ;)

 

425006003amy7.jpg

425006003bvp9.jpg

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I disagree. Look more closely, Oldman.

 

PCGS has authenticated an 1834 Alexander I Monument rouble as an 1839 Borodino. :ninja:

 

If PCGS can't tell the difference between those 2 coins, is it really unfair to wonder what the value of their certification is when it comes to such things?

 

Heritage has apparently just listed the coin with PCGS's attribution, thus repeating the error. ;)

 

Agreed, PCGS put a wrong date on the slab and Heritage repeated the error. But this is just clerical error, does not say anything about abilities of PCGS to identify a coin.

 

As the most extreme case I once among others sent two coins to NGC, one from Norway 1902 and another from Sweden. Both were 20 Kronors and listed in invoice one after another. I received back complete mix up, Norwegian coin was in a slab that said Sweden and Swedish coin was stated as Norway. But that was error during slabbing of coins.

 

WCO

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Agreed, PCGS put a wrong date on the slab and Heritage repeated the error. But this is just clerical error, does not say anything about abilities of PCGS to identify a coin.

 

As the most extreme case I once among others sent two coins to NGC, one from Norway 1902 and another from Sweden. Both were 20 Kronors and listed in invoice one after another. I received back complete mix up, Norwegian coin was in a slab that said Sweden and Swedish coin was stated as Norway. But that was error during slabbing of coins.

 

WCO

 

 

Yeah, you're right: both of them ... I guess the confusion here is that these two coins are closely related to one event: the Alexander I's Napoleonic War. That's why when they say "A Column" rouble it means 1834, but , sometimes, it also means 1839.

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Yeah, you're right: both of them ... I guess the confusion here is that these two coins are closely related to one event: the Alexander I's Napoleonic War. That's why when they say "A Column" rouble it means 1834, but , sometimes, it also means 1839.

 

 

The coins do have a certain similarity in theme and appearance, I agree.

 

WCO, would you agree with me that it might enhance PCGS's credibility as an authenticator if it could at least correctly identify what it is authenticating? ;);):ninja:

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The coins do have a certain similarity in theme and appearance, I agree.

 

WCO, would you agree with me that it might enhance PCGS's credibility as an authenticator if it could at least correctly identify what it is authenticating? ;);):ninja:

 

 

It is just "people's factor", they certainly can read the date on reverse. I agree that their quality control should work better and actually spot this kind of mistakes.

 

 

WCO

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Thanks again ! Can someone please tell me where this new book (Mr Kazakov) can be found?

The Oldman

There were only 1,000 copies printed, so it may be hard to find. It seems to have been a privately published book, but I am not 100% sure. I bought mine from "valeriyavaleriya" on eBay; at the time, it was a "Buy It Now" option, so maybe they still have some?

 

Good luck! :ninja:

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