worldcoinguy Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 WOW! 1914 rouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldcoinguy Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 This 1839 proof commem is not bad either. 1839 rouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldcoinguy Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 OK....this is my last post on this topic. Check out this one. Gorgeous patina in my opinion. 1888 rouble p.s. - I have no involvement in this auction; I just can't help admiring these beauties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 WOW! 1914 rouble This is the type coin which should be triple checked and personally inspected, including the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 This is the type coin which should be triple checked and personally inspected, including the edge. 1920s NOVODEL ... at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 This 1839 proof commem is not bad either. 1839 rouble Actually , this is 1834 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldcoinguy Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Actually , this is 1834 ! Wow - how did I miss that one? Maybe the better question is how did PCGS miss that one? That is a significant mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 1920s NOVODEL ... at best. It would be good for the coin and for the buyer. Mr. Shiryakov from GIM told me that he think that he can distinguish between original (1914 and 1916) and 1927 novodel. However that was not very convincing for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Wow - how did I miss that one? Maybe the better question is how did PCGS miss that one? That is a significant mistake. They did not - Heritage did ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 It would be good for the coin and for the buyer. Mr. Shiryakov from GIM told me that he think that he can distinguish between original (1914 and 1916) and 1927 novodel. However that was not very convincing for me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut. You are correct, Oldman! Here is the information I have from the book by V.V. Kazakov. He lists three variants, one original and two novodels: No. 472, original version (in regular strike and also in proof). "Almost all mintage re-fused [i.e. melted down]. Only about 150 coins remain." No. 473, novodel (no date or issuing entity is given) Obverse: proof Reverse: regular strike No. 474, novodel -- struck in 1927 by the Soviet Philatelic Association Obverse: regular strike Reverse: proof [the English translation is wrong here]. If both sides are proof, then this would indeed be a very rare coin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 You are correct, Oldman! Here is the information I have from the book by V.V. Kazakov. He lists three variants, one original and two novodels: No. 472, original version (in regular strike and also in proof). "Almost all mintage re-fused [i.e. melted down]. Only about 150 coins remain." No. 473, novodel (no date or issuing entity is given) Obverse: proof Reverse: regular strike No. 474, novodel -- struck in 1927 by the Soviet Philatelic Association Obverse: regular strike Reverse: proof [the English translation is wrong here]. If both sides are proof, then this would indeed be a very rare coin! Thanks ! I guess I need to check my old collection and reference books more often ... it's been awhile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Thanks ! I guess I need to check my old collection and reference books more often ... it's been awhile You're welcome! The Kazakov book was published only in 2004 ... I'm not sure how much of his data was referenced in earlier works. It contains some material which many people would regard as "explosive" (for example, the Brussels trial pattern roubles of 1897 do not exist according to him, but are merely error coins with broken stars on the edge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Interesting discassion of 1914 Gangut Ruble that may traced all the way back to Hermitage Museum. Russians do not believe their own museums any more? Besides, no novodel Proofs are known. Also, Gangut technically is not a coin, but medal. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1927 Novodels normally have just 1 side in proof....or I've just forgotten. It's been awhile since I was interested in the Gangut. If 1 side proof and the other regular - definitely novodel. If both sides proof or both sides regular - could be a novodel or original. This info is published by Uzdenikov. I have CFA brochure with price lists dd 1927 - they sold different types however price list does not mention 'mule' coins. I do not know why a Gangut rouble has horizontal tooling scratches on the edge border. Even the poor picture shows it. As to the trust... In my let's say 'library' I have GIM expert resolution of authenticity for the fake coin and fake resolution for an original. So I trust no one especially description in an auction catalog. I am not implying that Heritage sells fake coin however as I cannot have any opinion about a picture without the coin itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Can someone provide a link to a picture of Gangut Ruble with one side in Proof and another in MS? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Can someone provide a link to a picture of Gangut Ruble with one side in Proof and another in MS? WCO I'll need to scan them over the weekend....Oh, no ! It's Christmas time ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 You're welcome! The Kazakov book was published only in 2004 ... I'm not sure how much of his data was referenced in earlier works. It contains some material which many people would regard as "explosive" (for example, the Brussels trial pattern roubles of 1897 do not exist according to him, but are merely error coins with broken stars on the edge). Thanks again ! Can someone please tell me where this new book (Mr Kazakov) can be found? The Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 They did not - Heritage did ! I disagree. Look more closely, Oldman. PCGS has authenticated an 1834 Alexander I Monument rouble as an 1839 Borodino. If PCGS can't tell the difference between those 2 coins, is it really unfair to wonder what the value of their certification is when it comes to such things? Heritage has apparently just listed the coin with PCGS's attribution, thus repeating the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 I disagree. Look more closely, Oldman. PCGS has authenticated an 1834 Alexander I Monument rouble as an 1839 Borodino. If PCGS can't tell the difference between those 2 coins, is it really unfair to wonder what the value of their certification is when it comes to such things? Heritage has apparently just listed the coin with PCGS's attribution, thus repeating the error. Agreed, PCGS put a wrong date on the slab and Heritage repeated the error. But this is just clerical error, does not say anything about abilities of PCGS to identify a coin. As the most extreme case I once among others sent two coins to NGC, one from Norway 1902 and another from Sweden. Both were 20 Kronors and listed in invoice one after another. I received back complete mix up, Norwegian coin was in a slab that said Sweden and Swedish coin was stated as Norway. But that was error during slabbing of coins. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Agreed, PCGS put a wrong date on the slab and Heritage repeated the error. But this is just clerical error, does not say anything about abilities of PCGS to identify a coin. As the most extreme case I once among others sent two coins to NGC, one from Norway 1902 and another from Sweden. Both were 20 Kronors and listed in invoice one after another. I received back complete mix up, Norwegian coin was in a slab that said Sweden and Swedish coin was stated as Norway. But that was error during slabbing of coins. WCO Yeah, you're right: both of them ... I guess the confusion here is that these two coins are closely related to one event: the Alexander I's Napoleonic War. That's why when they say "A Column" rouble it means 1834, but , sometimes, it also means 1839. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Yeah, you're right: both of them ... I guess the confusion here is that these two coins are closely related to one event: the Alexander I's Napoleonic War. That's why when they say "A Column" rouble it means 1834, but , sometimes, it also means 1839. The coins do have a certain similarity in theme and appearance, I agree. WCO, would you agree with me that it might enhance PCGS's credibility as an authenticator if it could at least correctly identify what it is authenticating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 The coins do have a certain similarity in theme and appearance, I agree. WCO, would you agree with me that it might enhance PCGS's credibility as an authenticator if it could at least correctly identify what it is authenticating? It is just "people's factor", they certainly can read the date on reverse. I agree that their quality control should work better and actually spot this kind of mistakes. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Thanks again ! Can someone please tell me where this new book (Mr Kazakov) can be found?The Oldman There were only 1,000 copies printed, so it may be hard to find. It seems to have been a privately published book, but I am not 100% sure. I bought mine from "valeriyavaleriya" on eBay; at the time, it was a "Buy It Now" option, so maybe they still have some? Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I assume no one can provide picture or link to a picture of Gangut Ruble with one side in Proof and the other in MS? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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