jlueke Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 In 1266 the French started minting a large silver coin for the first time in centuries, the gros tournois. In Venice the grosso or denarius grosso had been coinsed for the previous 60-70 years prior to the French coinage being minted. While the French coin was larger, cut at 58 to the mark rather than 109.5, both were of very fine silver (96 and 98.5% respectively) much unlike the pennys then in use. Both denominations were quickly copied in the rest of Europe, the French design in the North and West and the venetian in the East and South. What I am wondering is if the French denomination was inspired by the existence of the Ventian, discovered through trade or the Crusades, or if it was a parallel and independent devlopment brought on by the same need: namely a large and stable trade currency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDJMSP Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 The idea was pretty much copied from the Venetians, and yes it was in order to facilitate trade. From what I know of you, I would strongly recommend a book called Zecca - The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages by Alan M. Stahl. I think you would enjoy it immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 I don't have a copy and I haven't read it, but: Gros Tournois: Proceeding of the 14th Oxford Symposium (Hardcover, 1997) by N. J. Mayhew might be of interest. (It is to me, but it hasn't reached the top of my want list.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted December 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 The idea was pretty much copied from the Venetians, and yes it was in order to facilitate trade. From what I know of you, I would strongly recommend a book called Zecca - The Mint of Venice in the Middle Ages by Alan M. Stahl. I think you would enjoy it immensely. Hehe, I am almost done with that book The book very interesting in a lot of different ways and filled with a dizzying amount of wonderful data. The one thing I now wonder is how much the 4th Crusade had to do with the introduction of the grosso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted December 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 I don't have a copy and I haven't read it, but: Gros Tournois: Proceeding of the 14th Oxford Symposium (Hardcover, 1997) by N. J. Mayhew might be of interest. (It is to me, but it hasn't reached the top of my want list.) Yes it might, thanks Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 The British were a bit slowish to adopt this new large denomination, and when they did, they referred to it as the Groat. Edward III of England was the first British monarch to issue the Groat or fourpence, during the 1350's. Shortly thereafter whence David II of Scotland was released from his captivity in England, he authorised the production of a whole new coinage series in Scotland which included denominations from one penny to the half groat and groat and the noble of 80 pence. Here is an example of a Scottish groat which was minted shortly after David II's return to Scotland in 1356: These coins were minted in Edinburgh, but for the most part they never really saw circulation in Scotland, but may have been sent to England in the first payments of the ransom money which David II agreed to pay Edward III of England before the payments were suspended in the 1360's. These coins corresponded in value to the English standard, but later in the reign the debased issues began to appear and thence forever more Scottish and English coinage did not retain the same value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted December 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 I find it very interesting how these denominations spread. From Italy to France, Serbia, Hungary, Sicily, Bohemia, Germany, and England all in a relatively short amount of time. The same story repeats itself in gold a little later with the florin/gulden and ducat. I am tempted to explore some correlations between the arribal of large trade currency and social and political changes of a given region. Another interesting facet is how the trade coinage needed to be much more like bullion while local currency tended to be heavily overvalued in order to stay in circulation as the price of silver and gold fluctuated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 Overvaluation in Scotland had the effect of keeping Scottish coinage in Scotland, whereas before the 1360's it often left Scotland and went to Northern England where it is still found by detectorists. After that time Scottish coinage is most often found in Scotland only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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