Jump to content
CoinPeople.com

PLATINUM 12 RUBLE 1831 !!!!! ORIGINAL?


GHV
 Share

Recommended Posts

somebody can give me opinion?

 

or everybody sit and waiting end of the action to Bid? :ninja:

 

 

1. Authenticity of platinum coins is NOT possible to decide looking at pictures only. There are many high quality counterfeits around. To answer authentic or not may require analysis of metal alloy. Authentic coins made from Ural Platinum should have some Iridium, Iron, Copper, Palladium and Ruthenium in it. Those elements together total about 4% in alloy.

 

2. Crude fakes are sometimes possible to distinguish by using pictures, but at least pictures should be good enough.

 

3. The way this coin is presented I do not believe this is authentic piece.

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Authenticity of platinum coins is NOT possible to decide looking at pictures only. There are many high quality counterfeits around. To answer authentic or not may require analysis of metal alloy. Authentic coins made from Ural Platinum should have some Iridium, Iron, Copper, Palladium and Ruthenium in it. Those elements together total about 4% in alloy.

 

2. Crude fakes are sometimes possible to distinguish by using pictures, but at least pictures should be good enough.

 

3. The way this coin is presented I do not believe this is authentic piece.

 

WCO

 

WCO,

 

These counterfeits you mention, are they modern made fakes or 19 century novodels? If former and they are indeed that good--I'd imagine that it should be fairly easy for the counterfeiters to add the other metals you mentioned to the alloy--to fool metal analysis.

Or perhaps--buy some poor quality original platinum roubles, melt them, and make something that will sell for a lot higher price. In that case, the metal is original, but the coin is quite fake. Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello People!

 

What do you think about this coin on e-bay?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

is this original?

 

Seller says yes, but very strange to sell original 12 R on e-bay? :ninja:;);)

 

He sold several weeks ago 2 3 rubles, which is gives point to him, but I think it`s still not enough to trust?

 

GHV

 

I would never buy a platinum without it being graded. I have purchased three ruble coins from a most reputable dealer, and they were rejected by NGC. They were beauties too. Lots of fine fakes out there. There has been a study done of this and coins in prestigious collections were found to be fakes, based upon coin material composition

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would never buy a platinum without it being graded. I have purchased three ruble coins from a most reputable dealer, and they were rejected by NGC. They were beauties too. Lots of fine fakes out there. There has been a study done of this and coins in prestigious collections were found to be fakes, based upon coin material composition

 

WCO, thank you for your opinion, I know it is very strange to sell 12 rub on E-bay, even most stupid people never sell those rare types on action like e-bay.

 

Also I heared ever graded coins could be a fake, is that possible? coz exist great fake examples.

Probably somebody was working very hard on it? :ninja:

 

And again, it`s so stupid to sell "original" on e-bay.

 

I think in this case picture doesn`t matter, just "meaning" to sell original coin is FAKE.

 

This is my opinion.

 

;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WCO,

 

These counterfeits you mention, are they modern made fakes or 19 century novodels? If former and they are indeed that good--I'd imagine that it should be fairly easy for the counterfeiters to add the other metals you mentioned to the alloy--to fool metal analysis.

Or perhaps--buy some poor quality original platinum roubles, melt them, and make something that will sell for a lot higher price. In that case, the metal is original, but the coin is quite fake. Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks a lot.

 

ariba,

 

Your terminology is somewhat wrong. Counterfeits are always counterfeits, no matter if they are made tomorrow or hundred years ago. They do not become "Novodels" just because counterfeited a long ago. Novodels are genuine coins made at the mint, in our case St. Petersburg mint. And as far as I know St. Petersburg mint NEVER did Novodels of platinum coins, so anything in wrong metal alloy is not a Novodel but plain fake. Fakes we are talking about were made years ago and at that time there were no relatively cheap equipment that allowed to analyze alloy. All those fakes are not possible to distinguish from authentic coins by comparing details, but metal alloy contains much larger quantities of gold in it than it should be in authentic coin. So counterfeiters either used different refining technology than was used at the mint at the time authentic pieces were made, or they used platinum from other sources than Ural mines, or they just melted down some platinum items without doing refinery. In any case counterfeiters did a good job and pieces they produced even today are hard to identify from authentic coins.

 

You are right that with growth of technology and knowledge of counterfeiters numismatic community will face increasing problems to detect counterfeits, and may be one day numismatics as a hobby will cease since it will be possible to easily replicate everything. I do not know, but wish it is not going to be too soon.

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WCO, this is a question that I would like to ask you. When you mentioned there were no novodels made for platinum coins, are you sure that is the case? I have been reading some materials mentioning that it could be possible that when the Gangut rubles were restriked, that is when the platinum rubles were struck too, except in a much finer quality. I pretty much doubt that it would be documented as these were meant for sales overseas. Or are all these materials nonsense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WCO, this is a question that I would like to ask you. When you mentioned there were no novodels made for platinum coins, are you sure that is the case? I have been reading some materials mentioning that it could be possible that when the Gangut rubles were restriked, that is when the platinum rubles were struck too, except in a much finer quality. I pretty much doubt that it would be documented as these were meant for sales overseas. Or are all these materials nonsense?

 

 

gxseries, I do not know the source of information you mentioned. May be you can provide where this info comes from so it may be possible to think of creditability of the source. Strikings of Imperial coins during Soviet Era are known, but there are too many "white spots", most of the information is still kept as top secret.

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WCO, this is a question that I would like to ask you. When you mentioned there were no novodels made for platinum coins, are you sure that is the case? I have been reading some materials mentioning that it could be possible that when the Gangut rubles were restriked, that is when the platinum rubles were struck too, except in a much finer quality. I pretty much doubt that it would be documented as these were meant for sales overseas. Or are all these materials nonsense?

 

 

I heard about it too. :ninja:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

gxseries, I do not know the source of information you mentioned. May be you can provide where this info comes from so it may be possible to think of creditability of the source. Strikings of Imperial coins during Soviet Era are known, but there are too many "white spots", most of the information is still kept as top secret.

 

WCO

 

Very interesting...

e-bay hides Bidders names.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ariba,

 

Your terminology is somewhat wrong. Counterfeits are always counterfeits, no matter if they are made tomorrow or hundred years ago. They do not become "Novodels" just because counterfeited a long ago. Novodels are genuine coins made at the mint, in our case St. Petersburg mint. And St. Petersburg mint NEVER did Novodels of platinum coins, so anything in wrong metal alloy is not a Novodel but plain fake.

 

...

 

WCO

 

WCO,

 

Thank you for this interesting information. I sort of assumed that platinum fakes of such high quality must have been made at the SPB mint itself--with the same dies as the originals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, gxseries, re-reading this thread I realized that we started talking about Novodels issue, and that is very complicated subject.

 

While "NOVODEL" is definetely a genuine coin made at the mint, most people DO NOT CALL A "NOVODEL" EVERY COIN THAT WAS STRUCK A FEW YEARS LATER AFTER THE END OF FISCAL YEAR IF THIS COIN WAS STRUCK WITH ORIGINAL DIES IN ORIGINAL METAL ALLOY AND NOT POSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE.

 

Most collectors does not even know that many coins bearing earlier date were produced by mint at later time. I want to give an example. If you look at Irving Goodman sales catalogue, pages 76 and 77 you will see there description of the 1839 Proof set that included 1834 Commemorative Ruble. It is also mentioned there that 1834 Rubles were first minted in 1836! By 1839 it is highly probable that Proof dies were still in use!!!! And technically speaking ALL 1834 Commemoratives are NOVODELS. But have you ever heard that they were called Novodels only issue? Same story may be with platinum coins, but there is just no credible source of info about it.

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, gxseries, re-reading this thread I realized that we started talking about Novodels issue, and that is very complicated subject.

While "NOVODEL" is definetely a genuine coin made at the mint, most people DO NOT CALL A "NOVODEL" EVERY COIN THAT WAS STRUCK A FEW YEARS LATER AFTER THE END OF FISCAL YEAR IF THIS COIN WAS STRUCK WITH ORIGINAL DIES IN ORIGINAL METAL ALLOY AND NOT POSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE.

Most collectors does not even know that many coins bearing earlier date were produced by mint at later time. I want to give an example. If you look at Irving Goodman sales catalogue, pages 76 and 77 you will see there description of the 1839 Prooif set that included 1834 Commemorative Ruble. It is also mentioned there that 1834 Rubles were first minted in 1836! By 1839 it is highly probable that Proof dies were still in use!!!! And technically speaking ALL 1834 Commemoratives are NOVODELS. But have you ever heard that they were called Novodels only issue? Same story may be with platinum coins, but there is just no credible source of info about it.

WCO

It is true that the 1834 Column issue was struck in 1836 but it was standard practice at world mints in that era to keep older coins on hand for sale to collectors. The 1834 proofs were no doubt still on hand in 1839 and put into the special sets, such as the one in the Goodman sale. It is of course possible that the 1834 dies were used after 1836 but the ready availability of such coins until after 1900 argues against this.

 

That the 1834 commemorative roubles were struck in 1836 does not make them novodels. Mints are entitled to put any date they wish on a coin when first struck; in this case, however, 1834 is not the date of the coin but rather the date when the monument was completed and dedicated. In a technical sense the coin is therefore undated. The same holds true for the 1839 Borodino pieces, which were struck in 1838.

RWJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is true that the 1834 Column issue was struck in 1836 but it was standard practice at world mints in that era to keep older coins on hand for sale to collectors. The 1834 proofs were no doubt still on hand in 1839 and put into the special sets, such as the one in the Goodman sale. It is of course possible that the 1834 dies were used after 1836 but the ready availability of such coins until after 1900 argues against this.

 

That the 1834 commemorative roubles were struck in 1836 does not make them novodels. Mints are entitled to put any date they wish on a coin when first struck; in this case, however, 1834 is not the date of the coin but rather the date when the monument was completed and dedicated. In a technical sense the coin is therefore undated. The same holds true for the 1839 Borodino pieces, which were struck in 1838.

RWJ

 

 

Here is list of documents about making and mintage of 1834 Commemorative Rubles:

 

1. December 7, 1835. From Ministry of Finances, Count Kankrin. "About possible mintage of silver Ruble with Alexander's Column and how it should look like".

 

Emperor wishes to make and strike for circulation ...

 

2. December 16, 1835. From Head of the Mint, General-major Ellers to Department of "Gornih i Solianih del". About completion by medallier Gube of Silver Rubles design with portrait of Emperor Alexander I on one side and Alexander's Column on the other side...

 

3. February 7, 1836. From Ministry of Finances, Count Kankrin. About approval of design of Alexander's Ruble.

 

Design is approved and after hardening of dies ordered production of 100 pieces for His Majesty.

 

4. February 25, 1836. Project of law for Senate about mintage and circulation of Alexander's Rubles.

 

In the memory of Emperor Alexander I we made a MEDAL...with text under monument 1 Ruble. We found reasonable to put it into circulation as a COIN and ... call it Alexander's Ruble.

 

5. June 8, 1836. To St. Petersburg Mint from General-major Kovalevsiy. Order of production of additional 5,000 silver Rubles with Alexander's Column.

 

6. June 20, 1836. To St. Petersburg Mint from General-major Kovalevsiy. Order of production of additional 10,000 silver Rubles with Alexander's Column.

 

7. 1836. Mint Report. About quantities of minted ... coins.

 

... 100 pieces of Alexander's Ruble were sent to the Emperor in previous February and Emperor approved mintage of another 5,000 Rubles...

 

------------------

 

Please forgive me if somewhere translation is not that great. Reading all this made me wonder at one time. Most mintage of 1834 Rubles was made in 1836 and production continued till 1839 if not later and it listed as 1834 Ruble in ALL RUSSIAN CATALOGUES.

 

All I am trying to say that it is very difficult if always even possible to tell what is NOVODEL and what is NOT. May be my example is not that good. There are many other examples.

 

1911 gold 10 Rubles not listed as NOVODEL in any reference, still million or so pieces was struck in 1920's by St. Petersburg mint. This is known for MANY different coins that bear certain date and were struck at later time. 1915 Rubles for example, copper coinage of 1867-EM (that should be rare) and many many others.

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....

WCO, perhaps I am not too clear about the termology of novodels, but what about the 1827 pattern ruble of Nikolai I? Why did Uzedenikov consider it as a novodel?

 

I have no info about this coin. May be Uzdenikov had some evidence that ALL known patterns bearing date 1827 were struck at later times. But really all the issues with Novodels are quite complicated. For many coins it is just unknown when they were actually struck. As you see some were even struck BEFORE the year that they bear. What are they? STARODELS? :ninja:

 

WCO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no info about this coin. May be Uzdenikov had some evidence that ALL known patterns bearing date 1827 were struck at later times. But really all the issues with Novodels are quite complicated. For many coins it is just unknown when they were actually struck. As you see some were even struck BEFORE the year that they bear. What are they? STARODELS? ;)

 

WCO

 

WCO,

 

I like your new Termin "STARODEL" cool! :ninja:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually why would you want to bother wasting some 10 grand over the internet on one seller that you don't really know instead of a decent coin auction house? Yes, a genuine 12 rubles is worth A LOT

 

A genuine 12R is unquestionably worth a lot, but I think we are about to see that in these crazy times a coin with a poor picture which could not even be authenticated by picture alone + unknown return policy will still sell for quite a premium over the bullion value.

 

BTW, one of the 3R this guy sold recently, resurfaced on ebay about a month later with a better picture & sold for $500+ more. This time the seller was the buyer of the previous lot.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260030050706

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=280043447112

 

Would not be very much surprised if something like that happens here too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...