grivna1726 Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Mr. Z. Welcome to the forum. There is no proof that Mr. Gorny has ever seen that coin. Even if he used to see it, then there is no proof that he inspected it himself. And even he inspected it himself, there is no proof that he became aware about it being a fake. For a dealer of his size benefits of selling this coin (if it sells) are minor, and loss of reputation and business overall may be huge once found out that their company was deliberately selling fakes. So unlike you, I would not be accusing them of a "major crime", i.e. deliberate sales of fakes. While there certainly is a "smaller crime" - luck of thorough expertise of coinage put for auction. WCO Any dealer, no matter how expert, can unknowingly sell a fake. The fact that a dealer might have done so tells me nothing about that dealer's integrity (although it might reveal something about the dealer's expertise in that particular issue). What is far more significant is whether the dealer routinely sells fakes and what the dealer does when the authenticity of a coin he/she has sold is called into question. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has accused Gorny of routinely peddling fakes. In this case, he did the honorable thing by refunding the purchase price once he was alerted to the problem (although, in my opinion, reimbursing the buyer for return shipping costs would have been a minor expense and an elegant thing to do). I might add that the forgery in this case is a dangerously deceptive counterfeit which is not easily detected unless one is familiar with its particular diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Any dealer, no matter how expert, can unknowingly sell a fake. The fact that a dealer might have done so tells me nothing about that dealer's integrity (although it might reveal something about the dealer's expertise in that particular issue). What is far more significant is whether the dealer routinely sells fakes and what the dealer does when the authenticity of a coin he/she has sold is called into question. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has accused Gorny of routinely peddling fakes. In this case, he did the honorable thing by refunding the purchase price once he was alerted to the problem (although, in my opinion, reimbursing the buyer for return shipping costs would have been a minor expense and an elegant thing to do). I might add that the forgery in this case is a dangerously deceptive counterfeit which is not easily detected unless one is familiar with its particular diagnostics. Agreed, Gorny & Co. did the honorable thing by promptly refunding the money. Oldman accusationally tried to tell that Gorny and Baron were aware of selling fakes, but I think this was not the case. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 I would like to tell the community the happy-end of this story. Just now I finally got the refund for this fake Only the costs of shipping the coin back to GM were non-refundable (4 Euro), but I think this is a good price for the knowledge I gained by performing an extensive research on these coins. As WCO states in his signature - "Knowledge is power" 2kisenishMr.Gorny has a good reputation. I’m happy it works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted December 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 2kisenishMr.Gorny has a good reputation. I’m happy it works out for you. I don't doubt in his reputation, they (Gorny & Mosch) are reliable and respected auctioneers, mistakes, as in this case, can happen. I've also heard from others, if the coin reveals to be a fake, they will refund the money. So, I'm grateful to these guys It's not possible to know everything. I also disagree that they can do it by purpose. Reputation is much more important, as you can't buy it. They will see me of course on the coming auctions, since I know - if s*** happens, they'll admit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Do you think he was aware of this coin being a fake Yes. I think, this one and other 6 or more coins if you mean last Gorny auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Mr. Z. Welcome to the forum. There is no proof that Mr. Gorny has ever seen that coin. Even if he used to see it, then there is no proof that he inspected it himself. And even he inspected it himself, there is no proof that he became aware about it being a fake. For a dealer of his size benefits of selling this coin (if it sells) are minor, and loss of reputation and business overall may be huge once found out that their company was deliberately selling fakes. So unlike you, I would not be accusing them of a "major crime", i.e. deliberate sales of fakes. While there certainly is a "smaller crime" - luck of thorough expertise of coinage put for auction. WCO I can not disagree more with Mr/Ms WCO. These auction houses are responsible for what they are selling. Mr Gorny proclaimed himself a specialist in Russian coinage, a professional. A PROFESSIONAL ! Do I have to add anything here ? I do not think so ! I do not accuse him of a "major crime". I (as many others ) have just lost trust in him and his auctions. That means that Mr Gorny has lost another client. Sincerely yours, Oldman (BTW, WCO - Mr Z is not my name ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 What is it about the Baron coin that leads you to believe that it is also a fake? For example, one of the 1797 roubles ("heavy" ) was a fake and was removed from the auction at the last minute. Is it acceptable ? No. Can it happen again in future ? Sure, why not - there is no time for proper expertise, there is no NEED for proper expertise . As we all saw - fakes sell nicely ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Agreed, Gorny & Co. did the honorable thing by promptly refunding the money. Oldman accusationally tried to tell that Gorny and Baron were aware of selling fakes, but I think this was not the case. WCO I hope I have responded to this polite email, Mr / Ms WCO. Actually, yes, I am accusing them for the lack of professionalism in dealing with public interest. Internet and mail-bidders do not have possibility to inspect the coins and must rely on the dealer's reputation. Can you in these cases ? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Reputation is much more important, as you can't buy it. They will see me of course on the coming auctions, since I know - if s*** happens, they'll admit As one of the smart people said: "One can work on the reputaion for years and lose it in a minute" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Oldman, I still think everything is OK with reputation of Gorny and Co. They returned money once learned that sold a fake coin. Did it fast and prompt. Can you give ma a name of any coin auction company that never sold a fake? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Can you give ma a name of any coin auction company that never sold a fake? ... or of a collector who never bought one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Oldman, Can you give ma a name of any coin auction company that never sold a fake? WCO Dear WCO, Mr J. Elmen, for example. Well, I can not recall Stacks' fakes for a public sale either....."Alexander" auction in Moscow.... Don't get me wrong - I respect Mr Gorny deeply and I realize that people make mistakes. However, those mistakes must be rare. In this case , they have become a pattern and are VERY costly.... Best Holiday season wishes. Trully yours, Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 For example, one of the 1797 roubles ("heavy" ) was a fake and was removed from the auction at the last minute. Is it acceptable ? No. Can it happen again in future ? Sure, why not - there is no time for proper expertise, there is no NEED for proper expertise . As we all saw - fakes sell nicely ! Yes, but what is it about the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik that you observed that supports your contention that it is a fake? It looks okay to me, but I'm not an expert in counterfeit detection, so I'd like to know what it is that you see that I don't. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 "Alexander" auction in Moscow.... These guys had only 5 (five!) auctions with totally 495 coins, so maybe you mention them way too early. BTW, I heard opinions that the coin pictured on their first catalog cover was a high quality fake (I do not have any opinion, did not see the coin, only in the catalog). These words could not be said better: "These auction houses are responsible for what they are selling. Mr Gorny proclaimed himself a specialist in Russian coinage, a professional. A PROFESSIONAL ! Do I have to add anything here ? I do not think so ! I do not accuse him of a "major crime". I (as many others ) have just lost trust in him and his auctions." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Yes, but what is it about the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik that you observed that supports your contention that it is a fake? It looks okay to me, but I'm not an expert in counterfeit detection, so I'd like to know what it is that you see that I don't. Thanks! As I performed an extensive research on these coins - From the pictures, this coin looks genuine. It has many small features present on the original dies and published in all the catalogs. I will not disclose them, as I fear, counterfeiters can fix them. If somebody wants to get a copy of my expertise to Mr. Gorny (in German, but with comparative pictures ), please write to alexei21@hotmail.com However, a final verdict you can give only if you have the coin in your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Yes, but what is it about the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik that you observed that supports your contention that it is a fake? It looks okay to me, but I'm not an expert in counterfeit detection, so I'd like to know what it is that you see that I don't. Thanks! Sorry, but I do not think I've mentioned this coin as a fake , have I ? I HAVE mentioned one of a "heavy" roubles 1797 - please read above. Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 These guys had only 5 (five!) auctions with totally 495 coins, so maybe you mention them way too early. BTW, I heard opinions that the coin pictured on their first catalog cover was a high quality fake (I do not have any opinion, did not see the coin, only in the catalog). Well, you are right - it is kind of early...will see... These words could not be said better: "These auction houses are responsible for what they are selling. Mr Gorny proclaimed himself a specialist in Russian coinage, a professional. A PROFESSIONAL ! Do I have to add anything here ? I do not think so ! I do not accuse him of a "major crime". I (as many others ) have just lost trust in him and his auctions." Thanks. I'm just fed up with all those "innocent, money-returning" dealers. I'm sure they know what they are doing...in most cases.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Sorry, but I do not think I've mentioned this coin as a fake , have I ? I HAVE mentioned one of a "heavy" roubles 1797 - please read above.Oldman You are correct. Your original comment was made in the context of a discussion of Kisenish's 1705 polupoltinnik which proved to be false. I was the one who made the inference from your initial post that you were saying the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik is also false. With respect to the dealers you named, all are knowledgeable and respected people whose integrity is not in question. However, being human, they do occasionally make mistakes. A more accurate statement might be that they have never offered for sale a fake that you know of. When you look at a list of prices realized for an auction and a lot is not listed, it usually means that there was no bid or that the lot failed to make reserve. However, sometimes it means that the lot was withdrawn because one or more specialized collectors knowledgeable in the series identified the coin as false and the dealer has quietly withdrawn the lot from sale. No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. Even expert authenticators make mistakes and false coins have been known to occasionally be slabbed as genuine while genuine coins are sometimes rejected as false. The fact that a dealer might have offered a false coin for sale does not reflect on the honesty of the dealer. The real question is, what does the dealer do when he/she learns a coin is false? The proper thing to do is withdraw it from sale or, if already purchased, to refund the buyer's money (and an apology wouldn't hurt). In my estimation, both Gorny and Baron did the proper thing. I understand that you believe that both of these dealers knowingly offer fakes for sale. I can't prove that you are wrong, but I have grave doubt that you are right. If you can establish a clear and consistent pattern of selling fakes, then I am prepared to revise my view. Showing that one coin (out of many thousands offered for sale over the years) is false does not, in my opinion, meet that standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 You are correct. Your original comment was made in the context of a discussion of Kisenish's 1705 polupoltinnik which proved to be false. I was the one who made the inference from your initial post that you were saying the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik is also false. With respect to the dealers you named, all are knowledgeable and respected people whose integrity is not in question. However, being human, they do occasionally make mistakes. A more accurate statement might be that they have never offered for sale a fake that you know of. When you look at a list of prices realized for an auction and a lot is not listed, it usually means that there was no bid or that the lot failed to make reserve. However, sometimes it means that the lot was withdrawn because one or more specialized collectors knowledgeable in the series identified the coin as false and the dealer has quietly withdrawn the lot from sale. No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. Even expert authenticators make mistakes and false coins have been known to occasionally be slabbed as genuine while genuine coins are sometimes rejected as false. The fact that a dealer might have offered a false coin for sale does not reflect on the honesty of the dealer. The real question is, what does the dealer do when he/she learns a coin is false? The proper thing to do is withdraw it from sale or, if already purchased, to refund the buyer's money (and an apology wouldn't hurt). In my estimation, both Gorny and Baron did the proper thing. I understand that you believe that both of these dealers knowingly offer fakes for sale. I can't prove that you are wrong, but I have grave doubt that you are right. If you can establish a clear and consistent pattern of selling fakes, then I am prepared to revise my view. Showing that one coin (out of many thousands offered for sale over the years) is false does not, in my opinion, meet that standard. Dear Mr grivna1726 ! Thanks for your posting. I have to admit that I agree with almost 100%. The only thing that I'd be willing to argue is the following phrase: "No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. " It is my strong opinion that the auction houses MUST take every possible measure to positively identify goods (not only coins) they offer to public. With the profit margin they receive I am sure it would be just a small $$$ fraction to spend for knowledgeable experts, dealers, etc. Otherwise, it looks and feels like "Catch me if you can". Very best wishes , Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I recently bought a coin from Spink that turned out to be a fake. The refund was instantaneous upon them receiving the coin. Did they place this coin in their sale knowingly? I think (hope ) not. These action houses are in for a long run, so why would they try to ruin their reputation on purpose? It does not make sense. I understand what Oldman is saying and the same thoughts are going through my mind all the time. On the other hand, most of these auction houses were interested/involved in true numismatics once upon a time, but now they are just businessman. Do you think Mr. Gorny inspects each coin personally? Their expertise was fine when Russian coins were selling in hundreds of dollars. So they make an occasional mistakes and not much harm is done. Now, that these coin sell for tenth of thousands, that's a different story. They are just not good enough as experts in Russian coinage. And should they be? Do not forget, they sell everything unders the sun, not just what we are interested in. So if one wants to buy an expensive rare coin, they better be deserving of that coin not with just having the money, but by having the knowledge, or using some extra money to get an independent opinion. For the rest of us, who do not buy very expensive coins, getting burned along the way is the only way to getting THERE. And when you get THERE, it is a quick look, followed by a quick touch and you know the TRUTH . IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Dear WCO, Mr J. Elmen, for example. Well, I can not recall Stacks' fakes for a public sale either....."Alexander" auction in Moscow.... Don't get me wrong - I respect Mr Gorny deeply and I realize that people make mistakes. However, those mistakes must be rare. In this case , they have become a pattern and are VERY costly.... Best Holiday season wishes. Trully yours, Oldman Oldman, All dealers (if you are that naive that willing to discass this) do "mistakes" that are quite costly for their customers. This is simply because no one knows everything, there is no Perfect Authenticator and Perfect Grader and Perfect Auctioneer and Perfect Cataloguer in the world and "people's factor" is always present. You think that "costly mistakes" made by dealers are only when they sell a fake? Those cases are rare. I can tell you a thing or two about EVERY dealer you mentioned (except Alexander auction I am not familiar with), but do not want this to go on. I do respect Mr. Elmen, Stacks and many other good and nice dealers and auction houses, I do respect Mr. Gorny too, I think they all are good to deal with. If you think otherwise then it is up to you, chose who you like and who you dislike, but I think it is not appropriate to provide bad and misleading information about major dealers here on the forum. And FYI: "magor crimes" and major loss of money by auction participants are not because buying a fake coin. Try shill bidding, fake bidding on mail-bid sales, making up better pictures of coins to look up nice in catalogues and on the internet, misleading descriptions of coins to make them look scarcer and nicer than they really are, selling a "no grade" cleaned, artificially toned, tooled trash. This is 100 times bigger than fakes problem, and most people even do not understand this. Best regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I pretty much agree with WCO and grivna's points. While auction houses should find the experts to certify such coins, one should not immediately condemn them for not getting them right. On the other hand, do tell me, have ANY dealers never made any mistakes? If so, please do recommand me. Even recently discovery of counterfeits are still found. This is from the US coinage example of the Morgan dollars http://coincollector.org/archives/002476.html (I know it's slightly off topic) but these do take major studies to occur. Even after so many years, counterfeits can only be found some odd 100 years later. I wouldn't be too suprised if Russian coins were counterfeited to such high standards and years later such coins are found to be counterfeit. Who knows? You might think you have a genuine coin and next year someone might tell you it's a counterfeit and it just might be. The reason is simple - the more demand we want for genuine coins, the more we are unintentionally artifically demanding the production of ultra high counterfeit coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 If you think otherwise then it is up to you, chose who you like and who you dislike, but I think it is not appropriate to provide bad and misleading information about major dealers here on the forum. My dear Mr / Ms WCO, I have not provided any misleading information. I have just expressed my personal opinion based on proven facts on a public forum. I strongly believe this my right and obligation. BTW, check any dictionary for the meaning of word "forum". You may be surprised to find out that I'm absolutely correct here ! And FYI: "magor crimes" and major loss of money by auction participants are not because buying a fake coin. Try shill bidding, fake bidding on mail-bid sales, making up better pictures of coins to look up nice in catalogues and on the internet, misleading descriptions of coins to make them look scarcer and nicer than they really are, selling a "no grade" cleaned, artificially toned, tooled trash. This is 100 times bigger than fakes problem, and most people even do not understand this.Best regards, WCO I agree on this part ! I'd not , however, measure what "crime" is bigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 ...selling a "no grade" cleaned, artificially toned, tooled trash. This is 100 times bigger than fakes problem, and most people even do not understand this.Best regards, WCO Thanks, this was exactly my point (see above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 The only thing that I'd be willing to argue is the following phrase: "No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. " It is my strong opinion that the auction houses MUST take every possible measure to positively identify goods (not only coins) they offer to public. With the profit margin they receive I am sure it would be just a small $$$ fraction to spend for knowledgeable experts, dealers, etc. Otherwise, it looks and feels like "Catch me if you can". I like that words too In fact even if they (auction house experts) do not study too much - they at least must discard any coin which has even a slightest smallest chance to be a fake, especially if that is rare or expensive piece (these 'rare' and 'expesive' are easy to spot, right?) - extra caution must be taken when such pieces are consigned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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