lne.inc Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Coin Information Certification # 956384-016 Date / Info 1830 RUS. B-78 HESSELGESSER Denomination 1K Grade MS64 Pedigree Strike No Grade Comment Population See NGC poplookup NumisMedia Price No Price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear all, I would like to buy a "slabbed" coin, sertified by NGC. The slab has a registration number. Is it possible, using this number, to track down in the database to which coin this number was assigned? If yes, how? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdrv Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 From NGC forum: Members of the Collectors' Society with paid full featured accounts can verify an NGC certification number by selecting "Verify Certification" from the Coins menu after logging in. Authorized Dealers can use the certification verification lookup tool found on their NGC Dealer Portal page. If you are not a Collectors' Society Member or NGC Authorized Dealer, you may contact customer service by calling 1.800.NGC.COIN or email us at service@ngccoin.com. A representative will be happy to help you with that inquiry. http://boards.collectors-society.com/showf...e=0#Post1393482 Dear all, I would like to buy a "slabbed" coin, sertified by NGC. The slab has a registration number. Is it possible, using this number, to track down in the database to which coin this number was assigned? If yes, how? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear all, I would like to buy a "slabbed" coin, sertified by NGC. The slab has a registration number. Is it possible, using this number, to track down in the database to which coin this number was assigned? If yes, how? Thanks! Hello Alexey, Unlike PCGS, which has their searchable database publicly available on their website, I believe that only NGC-approved dealers can access the NGC database. I find this highly unfortunate because of the large number of NGC slabs for sale today, especially of Russian coins (ca. 90% or more of slabbed Russian coins are NGC). Someone -- was it BKB or WCO? -- was able to find out about the 37-1/2 rouble scam we discussed here recently. Maybe they can help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Oops -- I see that akdrv must have written at the same time, but was posted sooner! Thanks, akdrv! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Thanks to all! Wow, thanks a lot for the great help! By the way, I have the same problem as WCO (see below). Very strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear kisenish, Please let us know if that is the correct coin? If it is, this is a rare find these days. Certification # 956384-016 Date / Info 1830 RUS. B-78 HESSELGESSER Denomination 1K Grade MS64 P.S. The problem with the forum's functionality is resolved now, looks as everything works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Certification # 956384-016 Date / Info 1830 RUS. B-78 HESSELGESSER Denomination 1K Grade MS64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 If anything suspicious, I would be glad to help. Just provide the slab number(s). WCO Thanks WCO! The slab number is 956384-016. Let's look whether it matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear community, Thanks a lot for your help! Yes, that is exactly the coin I want to buy. It looks really amazing , however, not very cheap This is the 1 kopek 1830 SPB from the Hesselgesser collection. It is identified as an original pattern (Brekke-78, minted in only 25 pieces), not as novodel (Brekke-78A). NGC clearly distinguish between them, as some other coins from 1830 (SPB or EM) are identified and sold as novodels. Also in Brekke sale they appeared as both - original strikes and novodels. My question: How NGC distinguished between them? Is there any obvious difference between 1830 SPB original patterns and 1830 SPB novodels? Thanks again! Alexey PS If I buy it, I will post the picture PPS Yesterday I tried to answer, but had the same problem as WCO (see above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear community, Thanks a lot for your help! Yes, that is exactly the coin I want to buy. It looks really amazing , however, not very cheap This is the 1 kopek 1830 SPB from the Hesselgesser collection. It is identified as an original pattern (Brekke-78, minted in only 25 pieces), not as novodel (Brekke-78A). NGC clearly distinguish between them, as some other coins from 1830 (SPB or EM) are identified and sold as novodels. Also in Brekke sale they appeared as both - original strikes and novodels. My question: How NGC distinguished between them? Is there any obvious difference between 1830 SPB original patterns and 1830 SPB novodels? Thanks again! Alexey PS If I buy it, I will post the picture PPS Yesterday I tried to answer, but had the same problem as WCO (see above) Alexey, I think this is Novodel too, no matter what is said on NGC holder. If you have Brekke (first book not a supplement), you will find that there was no #78A at that time. That's right, Brekke did not include novodels into his book. So the NGC specified the only catalogue number for this coin without distinguishing between novodels or not. On Hesselgesser sale June 7, 2000 there were two coins in MS-64, both were listed in a catalogue as Novodels. Lot ## 5604 and 5605. The other thing is that originals most likely were all minted as Proofs only, not as MS coins. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Alexey, I think this is Novodel too, no matter what is said on NGC holder. If you have Brekke (first book not a supplement), you will find that there was no #78A at that time. That's right, Brekke did not include novodels into his book. So the NGC specified the only catalogue number for this coin without distinguishing between novodels or not. On Hesselgesser sale June 7, 2000 there were two coins in MS-64, both were listed in a catalogue as Novodels. Lot ## 5604 and 5605. The other thing is that originals most likely were all minted as Proofs only, not as MS coins. WCO Hi WCO, Yes, it is difficult to distinguish between novodels and original strikes for this series, almost impossible. Bitkin tries to do it by different length of ribbons under the eagle. Brekke included novodels in his first book, but novodels 1830 SPB were not known at that time. He writes in his 1997 supplement that "Uzdenikov did not list them, but they are established now", I suggest he first listed them in his 1st supplement in 1987 which I don't have. Thus, to the time auction was held, both, novodels and originals were known. In 2005, other examples were sold, they were marked as novodels (B-78A). Then, it's puzzling why NGC put on this coin B-78, and not B-78A By the way, it is really shocking how low were the prices for nice coins For example, an amazing 5 kopeks 1849 SPM Specimen 65 brown was sold in 2005 for 370 USD. How do you explain it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Hi WCO, Yes, it is difficult to distinguish between novodels and original strikes for this series, almost impossible. Bitkin tries to do it by different length of ribbons under the eagle. Brekke included novodels in his first book, but novodels 1830 SPB were not known at that time. He writes in his 1997 supplement that "Uzdenikov did not list them, but they are established now", I suggest he first listed them in his 1st supplement in 1987 which I don't have. Thus, to the time auction was held, both, novodels and originals were known. In 2005, other examples were sold, they were marked as novodels (B-78A). Then, it's puzzling why NGC put on this coin B-78, and not B-78A By the way, it is really shocking how low were the prices for nice coins For example, an amazing 5 kopeks 1849 SPM Specimen 65 brown was sold in 2005 for 370 USD. How do you explain it? Not that difficult, I guess, if you know what you are looking for. NGC did not care to specify number other then #78 for general type only. For NGC to do more about this coin it had to be submitted for variety attribution service and paid for it promptly. You are right, prices were modest back then. But the coin you are being offered still is a good one and if you collect novodels, then why not to add it to your holdings? If you want, you may disclose how much you are asked to pay for it? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear community, Thanks a lot for your help! Yes, that is exactly the coin I want to buy. It looks really amazing , however, not very cheap This is the 1 kopek 1830 SPB from the Hesselgesser collection. It is identified as an original pattern (Brekke-78, minted in only 25 pieces), not as novodel (Brekke-78A). NGC clearly distinguish between them, as some other coins from 1830 (SPB or EM) are identified and sold as novodels. Also in Brekke sale they appeared as both - original strikes and novodels. My question: How NGC distinguished between them? Is there any obvious difference between 1830 SPB original patterns and 1830 SPB novodels? Thanks again! Alexey PS If I buy it, I will post the picture PPS Yesterday I tried to answer, but had the same problem as WCO (see above) Dear Alexey, 1 k 1830 SPB ORIGINAL- with long ribbons and dark brown color, the same as some Russian medals from SPB mint. Coin most be with strong details (first strikes) Regards, Rarenum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear Alexey,1 k 1830 SPB ORIGINAL- with long ribbons and dark brown color, the same as some Russian medals from SPB mint. Coin most be with strong details (first strikes) Regards, Rarenum Dear Rarenum, In catalogues listed 5 Kop. 1830-SPB with long ribbons as original, with short ribbons as novodel 2 Kopecks with 5 feathers in eagle's tail as original, with 7 feathers as novodel. How about 10 Kop. and especially 1 kop. that we are discassing? Was there variety with long/short ribbons for 1 Kop.? If yes, then where it is listed? Best regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Dear Alexey,1 k 1830 SPB ORIGINAL- with long ribbons and dark brown color, the same as some Russian medals from SPB mint. Coin most be with strong details (first strikes) Regards, Rarenum The main differences in 1830 series pattern\novodel are: Pattern must be cherry 'bronze' colored, novodel - like normal copper. Pattern must be proof, novodel - matte strike but proof edge. The price of 370 discussed couple of posts above must be for novodel, not original rare pattern coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Pattern must be cherry 'bronze' colored, novodel l- ike normal copper.Pattern must be proof, novodel - matte strike but proof edge. The price of 370 must be for novodel, not original rare pattern coin. Hi Timofei, The price of 370 USD was not for this coin but for 5 kopeks 1849 SPM on the auction one year ago I unfortunately missed This one (kopek 1830 SPB pattern) is much more expensive Thank you, guys, for discussion! If somebody get to know any distinguishing marks (pattern vs novodel), I would be very glad to know too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Pattern must be cherry 'bronze' colored, novodel l- ike normal copper.Pattern must be proof, novodel - matte strike but proof edge. The price of 370 must be for novodel, not original rare pattern coin. This info is about 1849 series? We are discassing 1830 series. ----------- Dear Alexey, The coin offered to you is NOT original, but novodel, and this is 99% sure. It's a very good coin anyway, and desirable to own. If it is offered at a price of a novodel, than why not. If it is being offered as original with appropriate price, then I guess you should avoid. My best regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 This info is about 1849 series? No. This info is for 1830 series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 No. This info is for 1830 series. Where this info comes from? Reference please? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Where this info comes from? Reference please? WCO All reference comes from Russian collectors/dealers.I hope we will see couple books from Russia in couple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 The main differences in 1830 series pattern\novodel are:Pattern must be cherry 'bronze' colored, novodel - like normal copper. Pattern must be proof, novodel - matte strike but proof edge. The price of 370 discussed couple of posts above must be for novodel, not original rare pattern coin. I agree with Timofei+ 1830 series 1. Original coins under cherry 'bronze' colored you can find brown "copper" color 2. Possible in 1840's SPB mint used the same ORIGINAL dies from 1830. 3. In 1870's SPB mint struck "Novodel" coins by new dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 The main differences in 1830 series pattern\novodel are:Pattern must be cherry 'bronze' colored, novodel - like normal copper. Pattern must be proof, novodel - matte strike but proof edge. I agree with Timofei+ 1830 series 1. Original coins under cherry 'bronze' colored you can find brown "copper" color 2. Possible in 1840' SPB mint used the same ORIGINAL dies from 1830. 3. In 1870' SPB mint struck "Novodel" coins by new dies. ------------------------------------------ Here is what I know about 1830 series. And it is quite different. References: Catalog of Bitkin. Hesselgesser sale, catalog of 2000. Other. From Bitkin: 1. 5 Kop. distingiushed by long-short (original-novodel) ribbons 2. 2 Kop distinguished by number of feathers in eagle's tail 5-original or 7-novodel From Hesselgesser Sale Catalog: 1. All denominations 1,2,5 and 10 Kop and both EM and SPB NOVODEL coins were made as Proofs and mint state coins, so at least saying that all Proofs are originals and all Mint State examples are Novodels is incorrect. 2. Goldberg catalogueres call lot #5599, 5 Kop 1830-SPB as original, even though it is graded Mint State-64 and has short ribbons. I do not know where is mistake, there or in Bitkin. Another coin they call original and not a novodel is another 1830-EM 5 kop. MS-62, i.e. another MS coin. ----- By saying "cherry colored" Timofei, as I think, meant that originals of 1830 coins were made as BRONZED proofs only and while I never saw any reference, I agree to that just because later series were made on the same manner. So I would change Timofei's statement to this: 1) Originals are Bronzed Proofs only. 2) Anything else belongs to novodels: a. Brekke class 1 (made from the same dies), most likely early novodels. These have the same details and only luck bronzed surfaces. b. Brekke class 2 (made from newly made dies), most likely later novodels. These have 5 Kop. shorter ribbons and 2 Kop. different eagl's tail varieties in addition to other non distinguishable once. However, it would be quite interesting to hear more complete story on this issue or another opinion. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hi everybody, I would like to make a poll. What do you think would be an appropriate price for this coin? Once again: 1 kopek 1830 SPB, MS 64, slabbed, labeled as original but possible novodel. Greetings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Where this info comes from? Reference please? WCO Trust me BTW Uzdenikov even in the latest edition of our bible wrote quite vague words about 1831 series novodels. I cannot quote this as reference however as there is no practical use for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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