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2 kopeks 1797AM - narrow cipher, unknown variety?


kisenish

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Hi everybody,

 

I would like to share with you the coin I bought recently on eBay :ninja: :

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...em=230016494810

 

This is a very rare coin - 2 kopeks 1797 AM with narrow cipher. Uzdenikov lists it as very rare ('-), Bitkin as R2, and so on.

Very interesting is that the line below the word "kopeks" is missing. I looked at this coin closely, it seems that the line has never been there, and not just became invisible due to surface corrosion.

I looked in all the books (I have almost everything, including "Corpus of Russian coins"), but this variety is not described anywhere.

The coin is genuine, I have no doubts on this point. The edge is intact, cord-like, as it should be.

 

Greetings,

 

kisenish

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Excellent find, kisenish! :ninja:

 

Is it possible, being that the listed variety is so rare, that both types (i.e. with and without the separator over the date) were actually trial or pattern coins? This may have been the method of easily distinguishing the different patterns from another. Your coin was maybe an earlier version, as it would have been very easy to punch the line into the die afterwards.

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Very interesting is that the line below the word "kopeks" is missing. I looked at this coin closely, it seems that the line has never been there, and not just became invisible due to surface corrosion.

 

Congratulations on a most interesting purchase!

 

I have never seen or heard of this "lineless" variety before. It must be an extremely rare coin to have escaped attention for all these years. :ninja:

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Excellent find, kisenish! :lol:

 

Is it possible, being that the listed variety is so rare, that both types (i.e. with and without the separator over the date) were actually trial or pattern coins? This may have been the method of easily distinguishing the different patterns from another. Your coin was maybe an earlier version, as it would have been very easy to punch the line into the die afterwards.

 

I know of 17 other narrow ciphers from my image database (this would be number 18) and know of 4 distinct die varieties. If this is indeed without a line (but I cant tell for sure without closer inspection) it would be die variety #5. Anyway, nice find and thanks for showing it. :ninja:

 

Steve

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I know of 17 other narrow ciphers from my image database (this would be number 18) and know of 4 distinct die varieties. If this is indeed without a line (but I cant tell for sure without closer inspection) it would be die variety #5. Anyway, nice find and thanks for showing it. :ninja:

What kind of database do you use to organize all of your images? I am curious because I have started to create a database of my own -- not just of images, but also with other information, transaction data, etc.

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What kind of database do you use to organize all of your images? I am curious because I have started to create a database of my own -- not just of images, but also with other information, transaction data, etc.

Hi Bob, if you drop me an email I'll send a summary document (pdf) I recently presented at a numismatic society meeting in New York about this ongoing project. (please use smoulding(at)earthlink.net)

 

Steve

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Hi guys,

 

Thanks a lot for your comments! I will post better images hopefully tomorrow (I just moved to Cologne, everything, including my scanner, is still packed and no Internet at home :lol:

 

Pictures from eBay are really bad :ninja: . I even asked the person who sold it whether the coin was genuine, as pictures were not sharp. After getting the coin, I inspected it thoroughly, there is no doubt - it is a genuine coin with surface corrosion and porosity on the revers and strong oxidation on the avers. This is exactly what happens to the coin if it has been for example on a creek ground for a long time - exposed to water mostly with one side, therefore, the revers is worse preserved than the avers.

 

I'll put better pictures. Edge is completely ok.

 

Greetings,

 

kisenish

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Good question.

 

Supposely if the line is there, would there have been any similar varities to it Steve?

Excellent question. I'll be able to make a better determination of die type with better images. Overall, the coin looks OK from what I can see so far but will await better pictures from kisenish.

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Just made this picture. May be someone can explain what it is?

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_1.jpg

Obverse is OK, edge is OK as supposed to be, just "interesting" reverse. Note porosity and corrosion the same as on the other rare coin. Looks awfully similar, isn't it?

WCO...I'd say EM with the mintmark removed. Again very hard to say without seeing it. If you have a hi-res version of this scan please send to Steve.Moulding(at)gmail.com

 

Thanks

 

Steve

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Just made this picture. May be someone can explain what it is?

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_1.jpg

Obverse is OK, edge is OK as supposed to be, just "interesting" reverse.

 

Yes, this 1 kopek coin from 1798 is a bit strange - surface is corroded, but letters are sharp :ninja: Real corrosion would destroy the coin more evenly, like the coin I posted.

The next question is - where is the mintmark? Well, there are some novodels without it, but it does not look like a novodel. Interestingly, porosity is less on the place where a mintmark should be, possibly indicating a deliberate mechanical removal of the mintmark. Some people do it trying to establish "new", undescribed pieces and then to confuse the collectors.

I´ll look on my coin again. Even if the line was removed, the narrow cipher is still real :lol:

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There was no tooling detected even under 40-x microscope. And still it's an altered coin. The pictures are the best I can do with my old camera. Modern faking "technologies" allow to make wonders with copper coins, dissolve surfaces, get coins toned again and look old and corroded, make line separators to disappear... narrow ciphers, AM mintmarks on place of EM all sorts of things. The only "problem" for the fake makers is that the surfaces of such coins look porous.

 

I think that kisenish purchased this kind of "work" (would be more than glad if I am mistaken). Of course the pictures of that coin were off focus and difficult to determine, so there is a chance I am mistaken. But something tells me that seller posted bad pictures for a reason, the price was $12 (and not hundreds as anyone would expect from coin this rare) for a reason too.

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I found a little crack around the "O". Interestingly enough, the crack seems to go beneath the letter instead of through it. There is also discoloration behind ALL of the letters in "KOPEIKA" which looks to me like the letters might have been welded onto the coin one-by-one.

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I found a little crack around the "O". Interestingly enough, the crack seems to go beneath the letter instead of through it. There is also discoloration behind ALL of the letters in "KOPEIKA" which looks to me like the letters might have been welded onto the coin one-by-one.

 

 

I looked at my coin now. I see there is a flan defect near letter "O" it goes through the letter too, just not visible on the pictures. Discoloration area is remaining red luster as often found in protected areas. The coin is definetely made from genuine piece, edge is too good. There are many of this kind (altered) on the market now.

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I looked at my coin now. I see there is a flan defect near letter "O" it goes through the letter too, just not visible on the pictures. Discoloration area is remaining red luster as often found in protected areas. The coin is definetely made from genuine piece, edge is too good. There are many of this kind (altered) on the market now.
Obviously, there are too many highly-talented Russian metallurgists out of work. :ninja:
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