OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I have a question about 1 ounce gold bullion coins - if it's not appropriate to this forum, kick me off. I'm doing some research about which 1 ounce coins to buy purely as bullion. Usually, the "big four" come up - American Eagle, Maple Leaf, Australian Nugget (Kangaroo) and Krugerrand. I'm located in Dubai, and the only ones from that list which are widely sold here are the Krugerrand (80's and 90's) and the Australian Nugget (new). There are also a few older Maple Leafs around, but not many. But there is another 1 ounce 24 carat bullion coin which widely traded here, which I have never come across in any of my research - it's minted by Valcambi in Switzerland (apparently Valcambi is owned by Credit Suisse). So (here's my question) I'm wondering why this coin is so popular here, and yet I can hardly find it on the internet, or in bullion dealer's referrals, or coin websites? Has anyone heard of it? Is it maybe a very new coin? I can't even find a pic on the web, but here it trades almost as much as the Australian Nugget, which seems to be the most popular. Is it possible that a company like Valcambi would mint a coin and only sell it into a particular region, like Dubai? The obverse has only text (1 ounce fine gold, 24 ct, Suisse, etc) and the reverse has only a flower within a circle - no text. Any thoughts? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Oh no, Oompaul, welcome to coinpeople. You aren't getting kicked for asking a question like that Now, I'm not too sure what that "coin" is, but are you sure it's not some form of Swiss gold bullion form? A picture would be nice if you can provide it I most certainly don't know about it's existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 You aren't getting kicked for asking a question like that I wasn't sure if this forum deals with numismatics only, or whether bullion questions are entertained.... I'll try and get a snapshot, but the dealers here are a bit twitchy. I was just wondering why a coin would be so popular here but almost non-existant on the web. Perhaps I should stay with the better known ones for now, until i get more info. Thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I found an image of the coin - for sale on eBay uk. Only difference is, this image is of a 100g coin. The Valcambis on sale in dubai are 1 ounce. Design is identical. It doen't have a currency value on it, like other gold coins I see. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/100-GRAM-VALCAMBI-SU...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I think that's a bullion, not a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Ok, I think I'm getting it - so that would explain why it's not listed amongst Krugerrands, American Eagles, etc - which are primarily coin but also bullion (they bear currency value as well as weight and purity of gold)? If the Valcambi is ONLY classified as bullion, it wouldn't be in the same category? (Sorry I'm a beginner at this...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I never saw one like this before but it is a gold bar technically ( even if it is round ) I have seen Dubai gold 1 gram bars with the rose symbol on ebay germany many times I presume the rose design is asked by Dubai since I have only seen it in conjuncture with 1 and 5 gram bars (from) Dubai There is another strange Swiss company out their Pamp Suisse They have some kind of rose too and notwithstanding they are Swiss they only seem to sell goldbars in the US in an internet store and are rare here in europe If the people in Dubai recognise the bar and if it weighs 31.1 grams I would not see any problem to buy it instead of Krugerrands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I heard of Pamp Suisse... There are quite a few strange companies dealing in gold here... And some of the Dubai bullion coin dealers here are apparently selling gold to some bad people (do a search for Ary Gold, for example, another Dubai dealer...) Anyway, thanks for the info, it sems it is a 'bar' rather than a coin, and maybe it's made for demand by Dubai buyers. I'm still trying to understand the market, but maybe I should stay with the globally-known bullion coins, the ones I mentioned earlier. Australin Nugget (24 ct) and Krugerrand (22 ct) seem to be the other popular 1 ounce coins here, and are known globally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Valcambi SA is a refiner, and I believe they market their gold under another trade name. I have seen the bullion listed in grammes, but not in ozs yet. It is very possible that they target market their products for specific regions in the world. I really don't care for the Pamp Suisse bullion, I don't like the designs of them. Is it possible to get Vienna Philamonikers there? They are .999 fine and are reasonably attractive coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Is it possible to get Vienna Philamonikers there? They are .999 fine and are reasonably attractive coins. I wish I could! I really like them. There is a lot of gold on sale here, but the range is very limited. I've been into 8 dealers so far and only found Autralian Nuggets (lots and lots, minted 2006), many Krugerrands, and two 1985 Canadian Maple leafs in not very good condition. Plus the Valcambi I mentioned, and an assortment of bars/ingots. Although I admit I've only been looking at 1-ounce coins... I've seen a few in less than 1 ounce weights but I didn't look closely at them - I remember one with an image of Queen Victoria, another with an image of (possibly) the Goddes Diana/Artemis - not sure the origin of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I am sure it is quite possible to find stuff purporting to be of some fascinating origin, ie the Victorian portrait piece, but they may surely have been more recently manufactured in Lebanon. What is markup like there? I have to ask due to this belief that gold is more commonly traded there than in many parts of the world, and that the markup may actually be less than say in Europe. In Europe, notably France, I notice that markups on bullion coins are less than in the USA and it is possible to buy even the Napoleons(20FF) coins at commercial banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 This UK dealer has useful information on many gold bullion products: Lawrence Chard Gold Coins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stilson Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I spotted they have minted some coins for different countries like Cook Island gold wildlife, Bahamas silver and gold golf coins, 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany Silver Coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Mark-up (when buying) here seems to be around 6-7% over gold price for single or small quantity 1 ounce gold coins. I think thats fairly standard for single coins, or maybe a bit high? I'm not sure what it is internationally. I get the feeling that quantities traded here are quite large, so if u walk in off the street looking for one or 2 coins, the dealers are not that interested in negotiating. Thanks for the link, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 6-7% seems a bit high, but I would haggle on the price, I have found outside of North America - haggling is not only expected but might be rude not to haggle. I found this especially when I was in Asia, and sometimes got prices of stuff down to 50% of the initial asking price. Now your obviously not going to get a 50% reduction on gold bullion, but if you could shave the markup down to say 3-4% then you have accomplished something. And yes, you have more bargaining power with the volume you are buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I agree, the 6-7% is based on just walking in and asking prices. When I have cash in hand and if I'm willing to spend time bargaining i might get it down by a percent or 2. At the moment I'm shopping around and trying to decide what to get... I'm just disappointed at the lack of variety in 1-ounce gold coins here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Sometimes the dealers play hard-ball though. One guy had about 20 Australian Nuggets, 2006, obviously very good condition. Amongst them he had one single Canadian Maple Leaf, 1985, pretty scratched up. I asked him if he'd give me the Maple Leaf for a reduced premium, he just gave me a flat "no". He was selling for exactly the same price as the pristine Australian Nuggets. His tone didn't bode well for future bargaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I used to think I was a good haggler, but I really perfected the artistry of it whilst in China this last spring. There if you don't haggle, you basically get ripped off, and they expect you to haggle. I had a dealer a couple of blocks up from my hotel, it was a lady and her husband. The husband was agreeable to my price offered, but the lady was the problem. Then finally I just through my hands up and said "goodbye" in Mandarin, then she came running after me and said yes for my price! Walking away is the key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 In Belgium the spread on one ounce gold is 2% You sell 1% below melt and you buy 1% above melt These prices are handled by most money exchange agents for coins in uncirculated undamaged quality http://www.gold4ex.be/servlet/javaparser.c...st_or_new&lg=nl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Valcambi SA is a refiner, and I believe they market their gold under another trade name. I have seen the bullion listed in grammes, but not in ozs yet. It is very possible that they target market their products for specific regions in the world. I really don't care for the Pamp Suisse bullion, I don't like the designs of them. Is it possible to get Vienna Philamonikers there? They are .999 fine and are reasonably attractive coins. You do not like lady fortuna ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 The Lebanese ought to have a degree in haggling, I have a few Lebanese friends who, if I need to buy something big, I get them to do it for me. Their opening move seems to be to fake shock and surprise at the price, and then always offer half of what is being asked. From there on, it's just a mutual battle of wills. And yes, they will walk away (REALLY walk away) if there is not a big drop in price. They keep up a constant attitude of "you've gotta be kidding me about that price", even if the price seems reasonable to my untuned ear. A price that seems ok to me, is met with "you must be JOKING! For THIS??".... I've seen Somali's do it pretty well also, but with a different technique - I was in a gold dealer the other day, and 2 Somali guys spent AGES looking at gold coins - the dealer really thought he had a sale. When the price was discussed they suddenly acted totally disinterested, got up, and walked toward the door. It seemed almost rehearsed. The dealer was literally shouting at them to come back. Buyers 1, dealer 0. I've also seen people do the "friendly" technique.... lots of small talk, get "buddy" with the dealer - kind of a smile and a wink - "come on mate, you know you're going to sell for less than that, lets be nice about this..." I'm not very good at the whole haggling thing, so I always end up paying more than I need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 In Belgium the spread on one ounce gold is 2%You sell 1% below melt and you buy 1% above melt These prices are handled by most money exchange agents for coins in uncirculated undamaged quality http://www.gold4ex.be/servlet/javaparser.c...st_or_new&lg=nl I like the sound of that system. Clean and simple, no mind games. In Dubai you have 3 or 4 or even 5 precent to argue about. Some dealers will try to get 8 percent above melt, if you look like a 'victim'. You say uncirculated, undamaged quality - what if the 1 ounce coin is damaged or scratched or something. Would the seller simply lose the 1 % and sell at melt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I wouldn't purchase damaged gold unless you have a smelting business and can turn it over to make other bullion. It could be a pain to sell otherwise. I have bought circulated $20 Liberties and Saints for about 3-4% over melt, common date EF's are treated like bullion by high volume sellers. Nothing like having a nice historic $20 coin for a small percentage over melt. My earliest is an 1874-S, and most are in the 1890's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OomPaul Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I see the point about not buying damaged gold coins if one wishes to one day resell at a good premium over gold price. But I was wondering, if one was buying common 1 ounce coins like Krugerrands, purely for the purpose of owning bullion, and would eventually plan to sell only as bullion, would that principle still apply? What I mean is, when one is selling a common gold coin only for it's bullion value, does damage matter? I would imagine that at worst, the seller would lose his premium, which would be relatively small amount over gold price anyway. Any thoughts? Is it likely that dealers would simply refuse to buy dmaged coins at gold price even though they still contain the specified 1 oz of gold? BTW sorry if these are pedantic questions, this is a big learning curve for me, and thanks for all the info so far, this has been very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I like the sound of that system. Clean and simple, no mind games. In Dubai you have 3 or 4 or even 5 precent to argue about. Some dealers will try to get 8 percent above melt, if you look like a 'victim'. You say uncirculated, undamaged quality - what if the 1 ounce coin is damaged or scratched or something. Would the seller simply lose the 1 % and sell at melt? By definition a coin has to be XF ( EF ) or better Jewelry coins, cleaned coins, battered coins etc will only sell at 95 % of melt to be remelted If they really remelt them I would not know but I sold some jewelry pieces and polished pieces so I know the 95% rule my preferred exchange agent applies Also by law it is required that all prices are officially posted and discussing discounts or rebates is illegal This protects the people that do not know how to haggle I spend a dozen vacations in the canary islands and if I ever paid more then 30% of the asking price I would be amazed ( I am talking art carving and leather ) Trick is very simple you haggle twice and establish the price at which they really let you walk away and then pay that price plus some at the third vendor's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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