sigistenz Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi, this coin was sold at eBay. Notice the "whiskers" at the sides of the top crown. I have a similar coin in my collection, from a different die, however. The "whiskers" appear only on a small portion of the coins with the 5kop1802EM eagle design, not on the 2kop. that I have seen. Does anyone have an explanation for the "whiskers"? What do they mean and why do they only show on the 1802EM eagle? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Well, that's really weird. My first thought was that it was the result of stress on the die at the narrowest (and therefore weakest) part of the die between the eagles crowns and the large crown. But that doesn't seem to be the case (although it's hard to be sure due to the low resolution of the image). Instead, it looks regular and symmetrical, which is unlikely to be the result of die stress and it does not appear to be at the narrowest space. That suggests that this might be the way the coin was made, but I have no reasonable explanation why such a thing might be done. It would be interesting to see high resolution pictures of that section of the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Here's a closer view from the ebay pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Grivna, he might have a point here. Here are some other auctions on ebay right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-ALEXANDER-I-180...1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/SCARCE-5-KOPEKS-HUGE-4...1QQcmdZViewItem I am confused right now. Good observation sigistenz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 gx, I couldn't get your links to work as given. Ebay complained about them being "bookmarks". But these links should work. The first link offers a very high resolution image. Here's a cropped image of the crown... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=300015464604 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8393070783 So, there are at least 2 more examples of the 1802 5k with the "flares" from the crown. That would seem to eliminate the possibility that someone altered the coin after it left the mint. And on all 3 examples, the "flares" seem to be in the same location. That suggests that they all came from the same die, or perhaps from the same master die. But this is not seen on any of the 1802 5k coins shown in GM, whether originals or novodels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I am puzzled. Grivna, do you happened to have a copy of Uzdenikov lying around? It might seem that in 1802, it was supposely a "pattern" die, used in both 1802 and 1803. In the second edition of his book, it's pg 325. I'm VERY puzzled of what is going on here. Here are two more examples: http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/12797215/ http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/12563864 They all seem to have the type of "whiskers" which I believe, has never been issued before. What is more interesting is that on the KM pattern coins of the 1802, it seems that the 2k and 1k do have them, which I think it worth to check out what they are. Perhaps the dies are supposely made for KM, but it was sent to EM for some reasons? (but they are denoted as novodels ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I am puzzled. Grivna, do you happened to have a copy of Uzdenikov lying around? It might seem that in 1802, it was supposely a "pattern" die, used in both 1802 and 1803. In the second edition of his book, it's pg 325. I'm VERY puzzled of what is going on here. Here are two more examples: http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/12797215/ http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/12563864 They all seem to have the type of "whiskers" which I believe, has never been issued before. What is more interesting is that on the KM pattern coins of the 1802, it seems that the 2k and 1k do have them, which I think it worth to check out what they are. Perhaps the dies are supposely made for KM, but it was sent to EM for some reasons? (but they are denoted as novodels ) 1802-EM 5k 1803-EM 5k Another 1803-EM 5k These things are just too easily found for them not to have been noticed before now. I checked my Uzdenikov. It says for 1803 "obverse and reverse of 1802 pattern" but I'm not sure he means it as a pattern in the numismatic sense of the word, but rather as in the sense of the style or design of 1802. My guess is that these are known to the copper specialists & I have just never noticed them before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 This one is a standard averse for 1802 em 5 kop. and most 1803 em However, if you find 1803 (large dots on reverse) or 1804 with such "rays of sun" (i propose to call it that) you are looking at an "R1" coin. But!!!!! If you find 1805EM (good luck ) -- you have a great rarity rated "R3" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Well, my friends, thank you for providing several examples of this strange crown. Its authenticy can thus be taken for granted. Let me repeat my question: What about the "whiskers" and why did they only show on the crown of the 1802EM type 5 kopeck ? Never before and never after and on no other denomination. Could there be any heraldical reason? Did the Tsar's crown have feathers at the sides? I don't think so. Does anyone have an plausible explanation? Thanks again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hello sigistenz, and welcome to coin people. I'm afraid I have nothing to add except to point out that this also exists on 5k coins of 1803 as shown in the links I gave. I didn't know about these until your post, but then I am more of a type collector than a variety collector and I'm not a copper specialist (I'm more interested in the silver rubles as a general rule). The fact that we were able to find so many other examples in such a short space of time tells me that they must be common enough that others must know of them. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people and hopefully someone else will be able to answer your questions. Thank you for posting your coin. I learned something new as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 IMXO, of course: these are found on both 1802 and 1803 em's. To me it does not look like feathers -- but rather as rays of sun emanating from the crown. It was very common during the Imperial period starting from the time of Peter I (sun rouble) to make the connection between the tzar and the Sun (for obvious reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Yes...they're also on the 1803EM. I have an image from an 1803EM sale recently that shows them. I also checked the Grand Duke Georgi Mikhailovich volume last night and can see them. I'd never noticed them before. Good catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 BTW, is there any way for the admins to move this to the main russian coin forum? I almost missed it here! ******************************************** Done -Tane ******************************************** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 BTW, is there any way for the admins to move this to the main russian coin forum? I almost missed it here! I agree. The subforums seem like a good idea as a way of organizing some threads so that things can be found quickly, but in practice, it seems easier to miss stuff this way (out of sight, out of mind). I just have to remember to check the subforums as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted August 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 BKB, you proposed rays reflecting or shining from the crown. This seems quite reasonable. The crown on top means probably the Tsar, the central power. It possibly shines benevolently or protectively on the two little crowns below. As far as I know, the two eagle heads symbolize the empire's orientation to both the East and the West. But why are they crowned? One could imagine a crowned head in Finland or Poland - but to the east of Moscow? Thanks to everybody for the enlightening comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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