Any idea what it is? 1992 100 rubles

[gxseries]

 

"The Anniversary of the State Sovereignty of Russia" commemorative 1 ruble coin was released in 1992. I have these two planchets shown above that are somewhat similar to the coin here:

 

Link

 

Now what do you think it is?

 

I remember posting this on the world coin forum (but that was when this forum section didn't exist) and the general opinion might be that it can't possibly be a pattern. The same post was made at a Russian coin forum, and I guess no one knew of it's existance except to declare that it's some sort of fantasy issue.

 

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- There are some pelicular things about these planchets, that is the awful similarity of the theme, but different design. Notice that the Basilica was NEVER minted in gold.

 

- The mintmark on this particular planchet is actually MMD, instead of LMD, which struck the commemorative 1 ruble NiCupro coins.

 

- A typical Russian style to denote the metal fineness is at the bottom left, which is denoted as "Au 900 15,55"

 

- Planchet size are exactly 29,95mm, which is accordance to a typical 100 ruble, which is 30mm(+- 0.25) mm against a typical NiCupro which is 31mm. The edges of both planchets are actually MILLED!

 

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Now back to the original story, in the past, most Soviet precious metal commemorative coins other than silver seem to have some sort of trial sample done. But what does these two planchets mean? If these are genuine, what sort of meaning would they have? If these are fakes or fantasy issues, would someone else other than the MMD / LMD mint be able to make such planchets, other than other world mints? I personally don't think a private individual has the availabilty to strike such planchets...

 

Now... discussion time... I am really hoping that there is new material / resources available to open light to this unusual question that I had for some period of time.

[grivna1726]

 

I remember posting this on the world coin forum (but that was when this forum section didn't exist) and the general opinion might be that it can't possibly be a pattern. The same post was made at a Russian coin forum, and I guess no one knew of it's existance except to declare that it's some sort of fantasy issue.

 

 

I don't know why it couldn't be a die trial for an unapproved pattern. If it's a fantasy issue, it is of unusually high quality and the apparent rarity of the "coins" argues against being a fantasy, in my opinion.

 

I might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that these are probably real. If it's a fantasy issue created to make money, then why haven't other examples appeared?

[gxseries]

Here are two more larger images of the same coin:

 

 

 

There is one more thing that I remembered, that is, Moscow mint is usually responsible for minting MOST of the Russian gold coins since the Soviet era.

 

Grivna, you wouldn't happen to have any infomation about this in your amazing numismatic literature would you?

[grivna1726]

There is one more thing that I remembered, that is, Moscow mint is usually responsible for minting MOST of the Russian gold coins since the Soviet era.

 

and that would be consistent with being a pattern.

 

Grivna, you wouldn't happen to have any infomation about this in your amazing numismatic literature would you?

 

Sorry, no. With the exception of Rylov/Sobolin (which is really just a catalog), all of my references deal with the Imperial issues.

 

I am most familiar with the 18th century stuff and a bit less familiar with the 19th century. I know very little about the Soviet issues and even less about the post-Soviet stuff, so I can't be of much help.

 

All I can say is that my gut feeling is that it is not a fantasy. I might easily be wrong, but my guess is that it's a real pattern.

[gxseries]

Grivna, would there be any chance that the Rylov/Sobolin catalog mention any pattern coins? As well as, would you happen to know where I can pick a copy?

[grivna1726]

Grivna, would there be any chance that the Rylov/Sobolin catalog mention any pattern coins? As well as, would you happen to know where I can pick a copy?

 

I guess I'm being a bit unfair in terming it "just a catalog". It does contain some short writeups, explains mints & mintmarks, Cyrillic dating & some others but nothing not already covered in more depth in Uzdenikov and other works. I see nothing on post-Soviet patterns, just the regular & commemorative NCLT issues up to 1993. The book was published in Moscow in 1994. Your pattern(?) is not listed.

 

I don't know where you can get the book now. I got mine in Europe some years ago. It might show up on ebay, watch there.

 

Here's what it looks like...

[gxseries]

Ah, found it at Basok. I'll try emailing him and pick up a copy when I do have the chance.

 

Thanks for the scan Grivna

 

Soviet trial coins are actually a lot easier to find, but when it comes to modern Russian coins >1991, I haven't heard of any at the moment.

[grivna1726]

gx, I think I might have found something that will be of great interest to you.

 

I was browsing through a copy of the 2006 Krause (33rd ed) of 20th century coins at my local library (I don't use this catalog and so don't have my own copy).

 

I found something very interesting. On page 1832, I found listings for 2 uniface "bank display model" coins featuring these designs:

and

 

 

 

Instead of the normal eagle

that is found on these silver coins, the bank models were smooth with the word "МУЛЯЖ" ("model") in large incused letters.

 

Now here's where it gets really interesting. The models were described as weighing only 15.22g each (the silver coins weigh 34.73g) with a specific gravity of 9.280 with REEDED edge! Also the diameter was given as 38.77mm which is almost an exact match for the 39.00 (±0.30) specification given on the www.cbr.ru website (see HERE and HERE).

 

The model coins were described as being a lead-tin alloy and proofs. They were listed as 1999(m) which I think means "Moscow" because I saw other coins listed as "sp" (St Petersburg?) instead of "m". I see some wear on the high points of the angel on yours which looks like base metal under gold plating.

 

Based on all this, I think these "bank display models" were made for banks to show their customers, without having to worry about theft of precious metal coins.

 

I think yours are probably models that were made for a gold coin that for some reason was either never struck or never released.

 

I'm now convinced these are not fantasies.

[banivechi]

Maybe off topic, but I have also a question: the Spitzbergen coin set 1992 was an official issue?

[gxseries]

Grivna, you know I have seen similar samples on sale YEARS ago when I first started on ebay almost 4 years. I was foolish NOT to buy them and now I don't remember what they are like I did remember however that they had the word "МУЛЯЖ" and wondered what they meant until I searched it up. Now I painfully regret the decision when I saw probably at least 3 unique samples on ebay years ago, but they were all silver patterns, not like this example I have.

 

Perhaps it is a pattern ruble, but right now I'm puzzled over why it has not been catalogued yet. I should get a Krause (suprising that I haven't got one up to now). I am guessing that the Mints must have changed their altitude somewhere during the years that the denomination is not to be engraved and replace it with the word "model". Maybe in 1995? 1997? Who is the Russian coin expert when it comes down to this? Should I send it to the PCGS? NGC?

 

Banivechi, if I am not wrong, there are no Spitzbergen set minted in 1992. The only pattern in that particular year that I can think of by Leningrad mint are the coins minted for Armenia, in both nickel-cupro and brass. Still affordable but I haven't bothered to get any of them yet... and I believe I will regret it painfully one day...

[grivna1726]

I saw probably at least 3 unique samples on ebay years ago, but they were all silver patterns, not like this example I have.

 

Krause listed only the 2 coins I mentioned, for the two Tibet expeditions. It might be that these are the only ones that they have seen or whose existence they have confirmed. They made no attempt to estimate prices for them: maybe there was no record of sale they could locate or there were too few recorded sales to try to come up with a price.

 

Perhaps it is a pattern ruble, but right now I'm puzzled over why it has not been catalogued yet.

 

Maybe the Krause people don't know about it or have never seen one before. I know I certainly haven't. Why not email them your pictures posted here, or send them an email with a link to this thread?

 

I am guessing that the Mints must have changed their altitude somewhere during the years that the denomination is not to be engraved and replace it with the word "model". Maybe in 1995? 1997?

 

That sounds reasonable to me. Maybe they were concerned that these might be sold as the real thing to the unsuspecting.

 

Who is the Russian coin expert when it comes down to this? Should I send it to the PCGS? NGC?

 

I don't know. I think PCGS is generally preferred for US coins and NGC for world coins. Both would likely use outside consultants for unfamiliar items (maybe even the same people?). Maybe it comes down to whichever company charges less and/or returns your coins to you more quickly.

 

In 1992, the Soviet Union had just recently collapsed and the situation within Russia itself was probably not very stable. Scottishmoney has spoken of widespread economic hardship about that time. It's probably fair to say that the average person was more worried about paying the rent and feeding the family than about coin collecting.

 

In such a situation, it seems reasonable to believe that mint officials might have concluded that selling expensive gold coins to collectors would prove very difficult or unsuccessful.

 

I don't know if they could count on foreign sales to any significant degree. Certainly their previous experience with the Moscow Olympics had not been a huge success and I wonder whether they had any foreign partner or distribution channel in the West willing to take the financial risk of marketing such a coin at the time.

 

So a decision to drop the gold coin and proceed with a much less expensive silver issue might have made good sense to them at the time from a marketing perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Edited to add that I just had a look through Rylov & Sobolin searching for the 1993 Spitzbergen coins. I didn't see any, however I did find some 1992 100 rubles gold and 150 rubles platinum coins listed for 1992.

 

There goes my "the coin would be too expensive" theory.

Edited August 22, 2006 by grivna1726

[banivechi]

Banivechi, if I am not wrong, there are no Spitzbergen set minted in 1992. The only pattern in that particular year that I can think of by Leningrad mint are the coins minted for Armenia, in both nickel-cupro and brass. Still affordable but I haven't bothered to get any of them yet... and I believe I will regret it painfully one day...

You're right: Spitzbergen coins are form 1993... but these was an official issue? I did not find nothing about in Krause...Spitzbergen coin set

Maybe exist some semi-official issues, or simply, not all issues are known yet (?)

[Tane]

The 1993 issue is as official as it gets, but everything newer than that is pure fantasy.

[gxseries]

Wow this goes back a while back! Was scrolling through an auction site and saw this which reminded me of what I had.

 

Found something very similar that shows this, instead a silver pattern

 

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4151&lot=910

 

 

 

The original 1 ruble coin is struck in nickel copper (high resolution photo available)

 

http://cbr.ru/eng/cash_circulation/memorable_coins/coins_base/ShowCoins/?cat_num=5009-0001http://cbr.ru/eng/cash_circulation/memorable_coins/coins_base/ShowCoins/?cat_num=5009-0001

 

I still think what I have is likely to be a scarce pattern / prototype.