An oddity

[gxseries]

Noticed something while I glanced through Eleverno's Russian coin collection and this is one wierd one if I am seeing things right:

 

 

While I am sure the 4 is an overdate of perhaps 0 or 3, what is more unusual is the mintmark - I don't remember the mintmark being so unusually small with respect to the rest of the coin, as well as the fonts itself seem to be unusually crude at the same time.

 

What do you think?

 

Elverno - perhaps you should check your coin again!

[RW Julian]

Noticed something while I glanced through Eleverno's Russian coin collection and this is one wierd one if I am seeing things right:

 

While I am sure the 4 is an overdate of perhaps 0 or 3, what is more unusual is the mintmark - I don't remember the mintmark being so unusually small with respect to the rest of the coin, as well as the fonts itself seem to be unusually crude at the same time.

 

What do you think?

 

Elverno - perhaps you should check your coin again!

 

The coin seems to be genuine because the eagle hub is the correct one. That said, your observations are pertinent. The mintmark is oddly small but I cannot make out for certain an underdate under the figure 4. There is another oddity, however, in the mintmaster initials, MF. The F appears to be badly formed and may be over another letter, perhaps C; in this case the M would also be over Pi ( P). It is frequently the case in overdates that mintmaster initials have to be altered as well.

 

All in all, an interesting coin.

 

RWJ

 

RWJ

[elverno]

Interesting. Like many of the coins in my collection this one is badly damaged. Here's a link on my site to its pages. If you click on the pictures there you get larger (900 x 900 pixel) pics. I'm looking forward to any further info. Do you think it might be a contemporary forgery? That would be cool.

[gxseries]

Elverno, do you happen to know what the edge of that particular coin is? If I am not wrong, it should be a dotted decorated edge.

 

What it seems to be is that the date is oddly double punched, and the last digit was punched in at a latter time. What is more shocking is the mintmark, which is a serious error - supposely SPB becomes SLB!!! !!!!!!!!!! Julian's remarks about the mintmaster mark too is a good point, I don't know why the letters MF looks deformed, and this cannot be explained by harsh cleaning.

 

Note:

 

СПБ is СЛБ in this case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. the left side of the П is slanted, making it a complete different letter)

 

(now why don't I have this coin? - joking )

[RW Julian]

Interesting. Like many of the coins in my collection this one is badly damaged. Here's a link on my site to its pages. If you click on the pictures there you get larger (900 x 900 pixel) pics. I'm looking forward to any further info. Do you think it might be a contemporary forgery? That would be cool.

 

Thanks for the link. I think it is genuine and see no reason to doubt the coin after seeing the enlarged photos, which are very good. It is more likely to be the overdate 1814/3 than 1814/0 because dies are seldom held that long for overdating. The defective F in the mintmaster initials MF could well be over a C. In my book on the Russian silver of 1796-1917 I list (page 29) an 1814/3 MF overdate 20 kopecks but in this case did not see the original and was unable to determine if the initials had been changed. Your piece, and the odd shape of the letter F, makes me think that it was changed, however.

 

RWJ

[RW Julian]

Elverno, do you happen to know what the edge of that particular coin is? If I am not wrong, it should be a dotted decorated edge.

 

What it seems to be is that the date is oddly double punched, and the last digit was punched in at a latter time. What is more shocking is the mintmark, which is a serious error - supposely SPB becomes SLB!!! !!!!!!!!!! Julian's remarks about the mintmaster mark too is a good point, I don't know why the letters MF looks deformed, and this cannot be explained by harsh cleaning.

 

Note:

 

??? is ??? in this case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i.e. the left side of the ? is slanted, making it a complete different letter)

 

(now why don't I have this coin? - joking )

 

A good point. Prior to about 1845 the letters on regular coinage dies were normally done with partial punches. In the case of the letter A, for example, the basic punches were /, \. and -. Some small punches were then used for serifs. For the letter L the diesinker clearly picked up a curved punch instead of the correct straight punch, thus the odd left side of the letter.

 

For medals, on the other hand, it was the practice of the St. Petersburg Mint after about 1745 to use a single letter punch for the letter A, another for a B, etc.

 

RWJ

[grivna1726]

A good point. Prior to about 1845 the letters on regular coinage dies were normally done with partial punches. In the case of the letter A, for example, the basic punches were /, \. and -. Some small punches were then used for serifs. For the letter L the diesinker clearly picked up a curved punch instead of the correct straight punch, thus the odd left side of the letter.

 

For medals, on the other hand, it was the practice of the St. Petersburg Mint after about 1745 to use a single letter punch for the letter A, another for a B, etc.

 

RWJ

Very interesting. Thank you for for this information. I learned something here today.

[gxseries]

A good point. Prior to about 1845 the letters on regular coinage dies were normally done with partial punches. In the case of the letter A, for example, the basic punches were /, \. and -. Some small punches were then used for serifs. For the letter L the diesinker clearly picked up a curved punch instead of the correct straight punch, thus the odd left side of the letter.

 

For medals, on the other hand, it was the practice of the St. Petersburg Mint after about 1745 to use a single letter punch for the letter A, another for a B, etc.

 

RWJ

 

That most certainly is VERY interesting!

 

I still have a feeling that it might be an 1810 modification of FG's 20 kopek dies. The letter G seemed to be modified to a F, which you can see some traces of the G letter on the right of the F letter, as well as the head of the letter "G" still protruding towards the eagle's leg, unless it's bad engraving / punching there.

 

What still makes no sense to me is the letter "L" and the small size of the mintmark. Even with the explanation above, it clearly is an error.

 

Elverno, you most certainly have an unusual piece. Uzedenikov has noted it as a novodel AND rare at the same time!!! Now, why don't I have something like this in my collection?

[grivna1726]

Uzedenikov has noted it as a novodel AND rare at the same time!!!

 

Maybe I misunderstand Uzdenikov's description, but I think he says that the coin exists as both an original and a novodel, with the novodel being rare.

 

Novodels usually show up EF to UNC because they were specially made to order for collectors.

 

While it is not impossible for a novodel to be badly mishandled and abused, it is certainly unusual.

[gxseries]

Maybe I misunderstand Uzdenikov's description, but I think he says that the coin exists as both an original and a novodel, with the novodel being rare.

 

Novodels usually show up EF to UNC because they were specially made to order for collectors.

 

While it is not impossible for a novodel to be badly mishandled and abused, it is certainly unusual.

 

Good point there Grivna, I didn't keep that in mind. It should been typed out as "NOVODEL While I took a look at the Uzedenikov catalogue, he describes /N/ as "novodels which cannot be defined positively from original coins", which is what you said.

[elverno]

Guys I am really learning stuff here. I'll get the coin out of the safe this week and try to photo the edge. As far as rare, well who knows. I bought it from an American dealer on eBay for about $10 with shipping.

[gxseries]

Yes, I'll be waiting your pictures on the edge. I believe it will be an interesting one As well as Elverno, you should give a check on the 1812 ruble edge - who knows what unusual error holds there. My ruble edges that I have seem to have some unusual properties.

 

As well as giving a brief look at Elverno's Russian coin collection again, I found another one here,

 

 

I just found it unusual that it is a double struck coin, although it is supposely "common".

 

(how I wish I could see them at hands - it's a lot faster for me to note faults right away )

[RW Julian]

Maybe I misunderstand Uzdenikov's description, but I think he says that the coin exists as both an original and a novodel, with the novodel being rare.

 

Novodels usually show up EF to UNC because they were specially made to order for collectors.

 

While it is not impossible for a novodel to be badly mishandled and abused, it is certainly unusual.

 

The 1814 MF novodel, which is extremely rare, uses an eagle hub first seen on the regular 20 kopeck coinage for 1823. For 1823-1825 both eagles appear on circulation issues but for 1826 only the new eagle is found.

 

The coin discussed here uses the hub of 1810, as would be expected for a regular issue. There are only the two eagle hubs for this series, 1810 and 1823.

 

I would agree that novodels should be in XF or better grade.

 

RWJ

[grivna1726]

The 1814 MF novodel, which is extremely rare, uses an eagle hub first seen on the regular 20 kopeck coinage for 1823. For 1823-1825 both eagles appear on circulation issues but for 1826 only the new eagle is found.

 

The coin discussed here uses the hub of 1810, as would be expected for a regular issue. There are only the two eagle hubs for this series, 1810 and 1823.

 

Thank you for this clarification and your valuable contributions to this forum.

 

It is a rare treat to have such in-depth knowledge accessible, especially in English.

[nicholasz219]

Yes thank you Mr. Julian for the information in English. This is a treat to Russian collectors who do not speak Russian and only can glean bits of information from Russian catalogs with the bare minimum of information translated into English.

[oregoncoin]

Yes thank you Mr. Julian for the information in English. This is a treat to Russian collectors who do not speak Russian and only can glean bits of information from Russian catalogs with the bare minimum of information translated into English.

 

ditto! thanks, RWJ!

 

it's funny to recall just how much you've contributed to English-speakers' understanding of Russian coins. i bet every one of us has a story...

 

as for myself, i remember 20-25 years ago as a kid cutting out and saving every article in your series in world coin news. i've still got those in a box somewhere in my folks' garage in indiana!

 

lol!

[nicholasz219]

ditto! thanks, RWJ!

 

it's funny to recall just how much you've contributed to English-speakers' understanding of Russian coins. i bet every one of us has a story...

 

as for myself, i remember 20-25 years ago as a kid cutting out and saving every article in your series in world coin news. i've still got those in a box somewhere in my folks' garage in indiana!

 

lol!

 

There wouldn't be a link to those old articles anywhere now, would there? I remember them as well!