constanius

From Ian's collection! I saw this when I was doing the search Scarcer jeton de presence issued for `La Transatlantique', one of France's maritime assurers. Engraved by F Decourcelle Also from Ian's collection. Another maybe? You have a great collection Ian, best wishes Pat Edit; http://www.cgb.fr/assurances-la-societe-dassurance-maritime-bordeaux-,fjt_04319,a.html VOS INDUSTRIA ME SECURITAS ; à l'exergue : 2 JUIN 1863 . Un trois-mâts sur les flots. Signé DECOURCELLE F .

The F was just for fecit. Louis Edouard Decourcelle born in Paris 1819. Au Palais-Royal (galerie Montpensir, 40) in 1861. From https://books.google.ca/books?id=DWtFAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA301&lpg=PA301&dq=Edouard+++Decourcelle+medaille&source=bl&ots=wk6Z-tvJ0m&sig=mCWOZb9rIhxsculzO07TAN4Sjb8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GSsMVbXzJcS-ggSgx4HwDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false Louis Edouard Decourcelle born in Paris 1819. Au Palais-Royal (galerie Montpensir, 40) in 1861. 1850 Prix de Rome(scholarship) attended le Ecole des Beaux-Arts. From http://humanities-research.exeter.ac.uk/salonartists/artist/id/2296# Decourcelle (Louis Edouard), sculpteur; né à Paris, le 12 mars 1819. — Rue Vivienne, 22. Died 1900 — S. 1851. Portrait de M. D...; médaillon, bronze. — S. 1852. Portrait de Mlle P. D...; médaillon, plâtre. — S. 1855. Portrait de Mme Ed. D...; médaillon, marbre. — S. 1861. Médaille en bronze, pour la C.ie d'Assurances maritimes, la Transatlantique. —S. 1863. Modèle de la médaille des prix dii collège de Chimay; médaillon, bronze. — S. 1865. Portrait de Mine L. C...; médaillon, bronze. — S. 1866. Portrait de M. E. D...; médaillon, bronze. Portraits de M. L. D... et de Mlle P. D...; médaillon, bronze. —S. 1868. Portrait de M. E. Adam, médaillon, bronze.— Prix pour la navigation de plaisance, modèle de médaille; médaillon, bronze. From https://books.google.ca/books?pg=PA373&lpg=PA373&dq=prix+de+chimay+Decourcelle&sig=0xVfGesGKPq81aXuxCS4gpe5EuE&ei=HjUMVcykPMuqgwSS-YHoBw&id=VIsZAAAAYAAJ&ots=QB4MsOLmR8#v=onepage&q&f=false

Very nicely toned, I like the 'CM' monogram and what a fabulous guardian-angel. Who was the engraver?

Many of them are listed as button & toy makers. Buttons were in much demand, remember they had no zips or velcro, and with the number of uniforms needed by the military & the gentlemen's servants dressed in livery, brass buttons were a constant source of income. Metal toys were another sideline, this is a medal by John Kirk, who struck the sentimental tokens among many other medals, showing his shop and his advert for the same, showing other items he made. Courtesy of The Lewis Walpole Library, Yale University.

We know that William Bagnall was in Birmingham up to 1802 and maybe to 1805, by 1810, to at least 1811, he was at 2 Silver street, Clerkenwell, London where he said in 1810 he was a steel die engraver & tallow chandler, this might explain why he was in the candle business, from a directory for 1817, we know he was still there in 1812 & he is next recorded in 1815 in Seward street. So, one possibliity is, he was lodging with the Welch family at 2 Silver street and assisting with the tallow businss at first but by 1811 he states he is an engraver & a gold & silver embosser(allied with books), then by 1815 at least he is in Seward street with his 2 sons helping him in his engraving & minting work. Silver street houses were mainly 3 storey + attic wooden buildings with the ground-floor having a shop facing the street. All speculation but fun. Thought I should add this to the thread from a previous post, Vendors pictures first then mine below, plus a close-up. Obv. GOD SAVE THE KING Rev. NOBE BGTA crowned harp 1696. Atkins #308. Evasion halfpenny signed by Bagnall.

Here are just one example of the E's from each of the 4 medals, ignore the apparent slight variation in size as they are in fact the same size, just not in my composite picture. The very long thin upper & lower horizontal bars and the middle wedged shaped middle bar are quite distinct, as is the slight bow to the upright bar. Keep in mind that they all have had varying degrees of wear which affects the breath of the letters slightly. Die lettering/punch analysis can be quite an asset in attributing engravers to unknown medals.

So true TDP, in fact the only images on the internet seem to be mine and there does not appear to be any in print either! I find it interesting that we know that Bagnall was juggling at least his die engraving with candle-making, embossing & finally counterfeiting to make a living & who knows what else? The area he was living in, after he had relocated from Birmingham, Clerkenwell in London, was full of poor class trades people, button-makers, engravers, jewelers, book-makers & binders etc, & it seems his embossing was to do with the book trade as he was mentioned under London book trade personnel in Holden’s directory for 1811. Shows how hard it was for him to keep his head above water and so eventually he turned to counterfeiting. Then the authorities caught up with the poor guy & he ends up being transported to an Australian penal colony & adding schoolmaster to his résumé .

I have been fortunate enough to acquire an example of the medal in the Greenwich Museum, which I used at the begin of this topic, that had been the only example of that unlisted medal that I was aware of and is brass, as you can see the one I have acquired is copper. The small 20mm medals below it are from a set of four and the engraver was previously unknown, until now. When I acquired the Bagnall 1802 I was so interested its uniqueness & then when I realized he had altered Davies die for the scenic side I rather ignored the reverse but having the two together I started looking at the letters more closely, the E's are particularly unique, and compared them with the smaller medals which are a match, as are all the letters. Even the "27" in the dates are a perfect match, so Bagnall used the letter & number punches he acquired from Davies on his 1802 reverse & on the last 2 medals in the set of 4 which were previously by ? So Bagnall was the engraver of the last 2 in the set, one dated 1802 the other undated and issued them singularly then sold all 4 in a boxed set in 1805(according to BHM), whereas Davies presumably engraved the first 2 dated 1801 and issued them singularly in 1801. So I believe Davies should be given credit as the engraver for the first 2 dated 1801 and Bagnall the last 2 & for the boxed set. 1. Preliminaries of Peace signed, 1801. BHM#520 2. Preliminaries of Peace ratified, 1801. BHM#521 3. Definitive Treaty signed, 1802. BHM#546 4.British Commerce, undated. BHM#600 all 20mm only listed in brass. 1805 Boxed set: A 22mm brass box with a uniformed bust of Lord Nelson, bare head, left, on the lid containing the 4 above medals. BHM#598 Note the 1802 I attribute to Bagnall has no flourishes, whereas the 1801 I attribute to Davies has, now look at this composite of Davies 1797 Calendar medal(sorry, not to scale) and you can see the punches used for its flourishes he used again for the 1801 Preliminaries Ratified. As for William Bagnall himself, I have managed to find another address for him in London & 2 other occupations he engaged in; 1810 trial witness & robbery victim: WILLIAM BAGNALL . I live in Silver street, Clerkenwell. I am a steel die engraver and tallow-chandler 1810. From London book trade personnel in Holden’s directory for 1811 Bagnall, William: Die engraver and gold and silver embosser No 2, Silver Street Clerkenwell Green 1811. Bagnall William No. 9, Seward street, Clerkenwell, 1815.

It is listed in Battyʾs Catalogue of the Copper Coinage of Great Britain, Ireland ..., Volume 2 Yours is 4236e https://books.google.ca/books?id=m8MWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA433&lpg=PA433&dq=liberty+unity+prosperity+1832&source=bl&ots=eknfhExBMa&sig=fRISj4TMgSmWHe5ZQ7Xyo6PnCl0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K1v7VO7BE43msATTl4DYCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Welcome from an expat for a couple of years in the early 70's I lived just down the road from you in Bletchley.

Here is another, WM. 32mm. ,BHM. #1612 RRR.

Very nice, looks stunning

Very nice medal but should it not be the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands 1779 because it predates the Batavian Republic(proclaimed1795) by 16 years? Unless the medal was struck that much later than its date. Here is an almost unique medal(I only know of one other) which happens to mention the Batavian Republic.

Having been continuing the discussion on the other website http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=29205.0 and I discovered that the lettering is consistent with early Carolingian text from circa 800 AD, what looks like our modern J was how their Long(uppercase) I was written. Early Carolingian script sometimes still used the long & short i(longa & brevis) used in earlier scripts, this was soon abandoned and only i brevis used but i longa was indicated by using a descender, making it resemble our modern J, though it is a capital I. Ninth century Carolingian manuscript of a text by Sulpicius Severus. http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth212/Carolingian_Culture/carolingian_scripts.html

It is a counterfeit, no genuine coins were struck with that date. http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/CtfBrit.intro.html "Following the end of the war in 1783 British counterfeiters saw America as a prime market, especially since passing counterfeit coppers had been made a felony in Britain in 1771" "The John Bridges Tavern, located just northwest of Ft. Ligonier in western Pennsylvania, was in operation ca. 1775-1795. In the excavation of that site 25 copper coins and four unidentifiable copper disks were unearthed. Fourteen of the sixteen halfpence were counterfeit (there were 11 counterfeit George III halfpence of which two were American made, 3 counterfeit George II halfpence, 1 regal George III halpenny and 1 regal George II halfpenny). The other coins unearthed included: 1 regal George II farthing, 1 cut regal George III halpence (only 1/4 of the coin), 1 New Jersey copper, 1 Virginia halfpenny, 1 Constellatio Nova copper of 1785, 2 Connecticut coppers, 2 French coppers, the 4 completely worn copper disks (which Trudgen suspects were halfpence). In all there were 16 halfpence and 9 other coppers. Of the 25 coppers 64% were British halfpence and out of those only two or 8% were regal and another two or 8% were American counterfeits, thus 48% of all the identifiable coppers found at the site were counterfeit British halfpence. The Massachusetts Centennial of January 11, 1786: The copper coinage, current in our town, must be a considerable loss to the citizens at large, as the intrinsick(sic) value of most of the coppers in circulation, is not half what they pass for. Scarce a British vessel arrives in any port on the continent, but what it brings very great quantities of rap(sic) half-pences, and yet shameful as it certainly is, this inundation of base metal is passed with impunity and indifference . The Massachusetts Spy for March 16, 1786 went further: ...nearly one-half of the copper coin in this country for twenty or thirty years past has been of a base kind manufactured at Birmingham in England; however, it crept into circulation and did ... pass for the same value as those which are genuine. An investigation by the New York legislature led to a report issued on March 5, 1787 discussing the principle coppers then in circulation within the state. The report stated there were firstly a few genuine halfpence, secondly a number of Irish halfpence and: Thirdly. A very great number of pieces in imitation of British half pence, but much lighter, of inferior copper, and badly executed. -- These are generally called by the name Birmingham Coppers, as it is pretty well known that they are made there, and imported in casks, under the name of Hard Ware , or wrought copper"

Unfortunately any knowledge regarding spelling etc, however scarce & restricted to academics, to try and prove how old the object is could still be known to a faker. One glaring fact is the use of 'J' which, according to everything I know, was not even in use till the 16th century. Mind, perhaps the people who believe this dates so far back have an explanation for that in regard to Scandinavian Latin script from that era. A belated welcome to CoinPeople and thanks for the interesting post.

Seeing as Kuchler was employed at the Soho Mint by Matthew Boulton and Boulton was associated with Woronzow(Vorontsov) I think it is most likely that the profile is the one refered too. Abridged from Olga Baird's "His Excellency Count Woronzow the Russian Ambassador and the Hardware Man: the history of a friendship" Matthew Boulton started to promote his Birmingham Soho Manufactory and its products as soon as it was built in 1762. Within a few years, even before establishing the partnership with James Watt, Soho became a ‘must see’ for travellers. The first Russian visitors to Soho appeared as early as August 1767, when Boulton wrote to his agent: ‘I have French and Spaniards today; and tomorrow I shall have Germans, Russians and Norwegians.’ Foreign guests usually came to the Soho Mint Birmingham with introductory letters from their Embassy. In his turn, Matthew Boulton was keen on expanding business with the Continent, and the most practical way was to do it through Embassies. During the Soho history of Matthew Boulton’s era (1762-1809), five ambassadors represented Russia in England. Alexander Woronzow (1741-1805) served at the beginning of this period, his brother Semyon (1744-1832) - at the end. Count Semyon Romanovich Woronzow became the most famous Russian Ambassador to England. Semyon Woronzow & Matthew Boulton's Corrospondence; Their correspondence of 1786-1807 consists of about 150 letters, both business and private, and demonstrates the development of their relationship from polite formalities, through mutual respect and appreciation, to genuine friendship. The 1790 medal by Leberecht/Gass does appear to be the inspiration for Klucher's medal. EDIT; From http://www.search.revolutionaryplayers.org.uk/engine/resource/exhibition/standard/child.asp?txtKeywords=&lstContext=&lstResourceType=&lstExhibitionType=&chkPurchaseVisible=&txtDateFrom=&txtDateTo=&x1=&y1=&x2=&y2=&scale=&theme=&album=&viewpage=%2Fengine%2Fresource%2Fexhibition%2Fstandard%2Fchild.asp&originator=&page=&records=&direction=&pointer=&text=&resource=4249&exhibition=1451&printable=1 The Russian Ambassador Count S.Vorontsov reported from London that Suvorov “was the idol of the English nation, and his health is drunk every day in houses, taverns and cottages” 6 . For the victory in this campaign Paul I presented Suvorov with the title of ‘Prince of Italy’. This is the moment which is commemorated in the Kuchler’s medal. On the obverse the profile bust of Suvorov is shown, with an inscription around: “ALEX.SUWOROW PRINC. ITAL. COM. RIMNIKS.” The portrait derives from the Russian medal of Suvorov by the artist Carl Leberecht (1755-1827) who was a leading engraver at the St Petersburg Mint. Leberecht’s medal was struck in 1790. It marked Suvorov’s victories of 1787, 1788 and 1790 in the Russo-Turkish war, when he was granted the title ‘Count of Rymnic’. On the reverse Suvorov is shown as a Roman warrior, or Mars, the God of War, raising the figure of Italy and trampling on the shield of a fallen French soldier. An inscription around announces: “ITALIAE LIBERATOR. MDCCXCIX”.

I think these are similar types: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=351&lot=1712 Islands off Ionia, Chios, Sphinx seated right/amphora. http://www.ma-shops.com/gornymosch/item.php5?id=900158&lang=en

Hi Ian, Happy New Year, this is one of my medals with the pointing hand pictured with the above medal. It is difficult to be 100% sure with the posted image, it could be either but to me it is the earlier mark, aurora should be able to tell with his medal in hand.

The symbol(poincon) on the first medal is a pointing hand, used from 12 June 1845 to 1860 http://fortiter.napoleonicmedals.org/miscellany/poincons.htm

Yes.

Nice In 1598 Mendoza with a large force laid siege to a number of neutral cities bordering the Republic & when they fell his troops committed many atrocities, including the murder of Wirich VI, Count of Daun zu Falkenstein (Ulrich VI von Daun-Falkenstein). Maurice commanded a force only a quarter the size of Mendoza's but by using the rivers as barriers(when they were not frozen) and skillful maneuvering his troops, skirmishing, occupying strong-points, and seizing supplies etc he frustrated The Spanish advance into the Republic's territory, without engaging in any major combat, thereby gaining valuable time. The Latin on the jeton translates as: Obv. Under his wings(this could have a deliberate double meaning) you are protected by a bronze shield, Rev. An avenging god pursues the proud.

Thanks for the correction & the info regarding the likely engraver

Boxing Day.

Thomas Bagnall, who was pardoned, went on to associate with Johnston & Brooks and this 1821 medal(not one of mine) is signed BAGNALL on the obverse.