Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by RARENUM

  1. Yes, Eugene and Igor, that was my coin.

    I'll better start a new topic on "the 1726 kopek", it is quite a story, I think I might still have a letter of the late V.V. Uzdennikov somewhere. All this was 25-30 years ago.

    Give me a few days :pardon: .





    Hi Sigi,

    Interesting,1726 was holding by collector from NY , according his words was holding for long time.I refused his personal offer for 2 coins (incl.Ex Sigi coin) because price was to high :(


  2. Thanks Rarenum,


    Frankly I don't like that "regular" patina, with the only darker places between letters and small details. Looks like cleaning.

    When looking on larger pictures I got from the seller it looks much worse than mount removed, it has signs of a repaired hole.

    One letter is also changed incorrectly (?) - A instead of K. Planned to bid it but now I'm going to pass ...



    Agree with you,I see all problem before and just confirm with better images.


    You can find original variety in M.Diakov catalog (2000) page 197 #31 .



  3. Hello Ultra,


    Looks like coin harshly cleaned original with some problems.

    If you can received better images I recommend review more details.First mount was removed or not and second if details was re-engraved .


  4. About 5 years ago I have interesting experience with PCGS and NGC company's. First I send 7 coins(5 kopecks silver of 19th century)to PCGS and received back 2-Proof and 5-Mint State. Second I break 5 holders(MS) and send coins to NGC and received 4(PF) and 1(MS).

    I was trying to grade 7 coins as Proof and final result was 6 Proof and 1 Mint State.My point is with all respect to grading company's we should look inside the holder and collect coins ,not the numbers on the holder.Collectors ,dealers,graders can have different opinion according on knowledge and experience.


  5. Proof, like Frodo's ring can only be unmade by the fires of Mount Doom. :)


    ....To completely remove proof surfaces you need to send the coin with some high grade sand paper, or circulate it to about 'fine' grade level. Both scenarios are rather unlikely if you ask me. In any other case, you can always recognize the type of strike of a particular coin. Sometimes one cannot make a decision just by looking at pictures, you need the actual coin to ascertain.

    Would be very interesting experience if some body send to grading company without breaking the slab and company change from MS to PF.



    I am not sure where Haiti and Philippines came from, I was referring to US coins mostly. But be sure - world mints were not working that differently. The technology was simply taken from the leaders in the field, like Boulton in England, who invented modern minting equipment. As you remember Russia bought that equipment too

    And I still insist - Proof is not a condition of the coin struck with business strike dies, but a result of technological process I described in my prior post. Proof coin is a result of that technological process and cannot become non Proof. As far as NGC grading and giving some grades in MS of PF - it has nothing to do with Proof technology, but simply with subjective opinions of NGC experts, based on their experience. You and me are "old school" - what can NGC teach us? :)




    Leading Bolton technology was used for Business and Proof :).Technological process is different with additional steps and improving product final results for the period of the time in some cases Proof destroyed and hard or not possible to identified .

    I would be happy if grading company will start grade as you speak and separate PF from MS, but today we have no better competitors in US and finally we have coins graded in MS with different “Technological process”.

    As you know I newer grade coins from my collection if not decide to sell. Since I started dealing with world coins is different, large number of collectors and dealers around the world buying with conference graded coins and I should see the same way as leading grading company. :) NGC can reach us only if spend more money for major references and hired Professional in Russian Numismatics "old school" for full time and we both know it is not possible today.One good point I see today they starting collect images in archives.Would be great if in addition add edge images for graded coins .

  7. Well, we all have opinions and that's what makes things interesting. :) I will state my understanding.There were multiple styles in making Proof coins around the world. In US, for example, there were a few different Proof coin styles - mirror (brilliant), satin, matte, sand blasting. But, what separates Proof coin from regular business strike is not "brushed special finish", but the entire process. There were carefully prepared dies polished to a mirror like finish, planchets were also specially prepared. Each coin was struck slowly and carefully, sometimes more than once to have full details of the design. As a result, these Proof coins have multiple Proof characteristics, not just the mirror like fields and edge and frosty reliefs of the design. One has to also look for squared-off rims and such. And just because the Proof coin displays the signs of wear or cleaning, it does not make it non Proof. For example, you can see NGC grading coins as PF-58 or lower.

    Agree about world coins with different “Proof characteristics”. And not possible to compare Russian with Haiti , Philippines …

    For Russian silver Proof coins of 19th and 20th century all the time with mirror (Proof) finished .One of the old fashion way to identified Russian Proof coin we can read newspaper reflects in the coin from 3+ centimeters distance .

    In some cases lower Grade (PF-58) not because mint ” PROOF IMPAIRED” techniques .For example I had previously experience not agree with NGC about one memorial rouble of 19th century .Send to NGC 3 times.1st Grade MS60,2nd-MS61,3rd-PF58 .Coin with light hairlines and old cabinet toning. I’m sure if I removed the toning I could get better grade but it is different case.

    Finally we find something we are not agree after “short time” collecting :)

  8. I did not think Proof coin could become non Proof, but only impaired Proof.

    Hi IgorS,

    As you know for Proof used the same coins as for regular(business ) struck, just brushed special finished . If surfaces was removed ,for example coin accidently get in circulation or cleaned … we can’t say it is Impaired Proof coin if 20% or 10% of the proof coin remain. Possible to described Proof like surfaces remain on the edge or... But I’m not agree with description ” PROOF IMPAIRED” in conditions if surfaces was removed for last couple hundred years no by mint. For example 25 kopecks from Heritage.

    It is just my opinion :)

  • Create New...