1731 denga again

[gxseries]

This is about the 1731 denga coin that I have - didn't feel like cluttering alex's post and I think I did post it in here some time ago.

 

 

Here are two higher resolution pictures although I'll have to retake them again:

 

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4905/denga900fxv4.jpg

 

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8422/denga900bjm3.jpg

 

While I am happy to understand that the "denga" side is die clashed, I am not quite prepared to accept mentally that the double headed eagle side is due to a die clash which leaves the field extremely clear.

 

If I do a horizontal flip and do a negative, here is what it looks like:

 

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/690/denga900flipci3.jpg

 

I hope you can see that the number "7" and the double bar corresponds to the denga side as well as other aspects of the flora.

 

My impression of what a die clash is that since the dies are clashed, it is usually vague remains of the opposite die as well as it being an extrusive rather than intrusive like seen on this site: http://www.coingalaxy.com/coininfo/clashed.html I'm sorry for not able to explain it better but I guess examples are better:

 

 

rittenhouse, I'm sure you might find this post extremely silly or rather completely wrong but any easier explanation will be highly appreciated for one who doesn't understand much about die mechanics. Thanks in advance.

[rittenhouse]

This is about the 1731 denga coin that I have - didn't feel like cluttering alex's post and I think I did post it in here some time ago.

 

 

Here are two higher resolution pictures although I'll have to retake them again:

 

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4905/denga900fxv4.jpg

 

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8422/denga900bjm3.jpg

 

While I am happy to understand that the "denga" side is die clashed, I am not quite prepared to accept mentally that the double headed eagle side is due to a die clash which leaves the field extremely clear.

 

If I do a horizontal flip and do a negative, here is what it looks like:

 

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/690/denga900flipci3.jpg

 

I hope you can see that the number "7" and the double bar corresponds to the denga side as well as other aspects of the flora.

 

My impression of what a die clash is that since the dies are clashed, it is usually vague remains of the opposite die as well as it being an extrusive rather than intrusive like seen on this site: http://www.coingalaxy.com/coininfo/clashed.html I'm sorry for not able to explain it better but I guess examples are better:

 

 

rittenhouse, I'm sure you might find this post extremely silly or rather completely wrong but any easier explanation will be highly appreciated for one who doesn't understand much about die mechanics. Thanks in advance.

 

GX,

 

I certainly do not find your post silly or wrong. You raise very valid points on how to tell a clash from a flip-over double strike or overstruck brockage, etc. Your coin is a clash. So, how do we tell?

 

1. The extra images are in normal alignment. That is, the portions of reverse image and obverse image visable on the opposing side are in the same alignment as is typical for the coin. In the US series this is "coin alignment", in many foreign series this is "medal alignment".

 

2. The images are mirrored and incuse when compared to the coin. That is, lines that are raised on a coin are incuse on the clash and mirrored left-to-right.

 

3. The strength of the clash image on the coin depends upon several factors: how heavy was the clash, how many clahes, how heavy is the subsequent strike of coins, what type of coinage metal, were the dies polished afterwards, etc.

 

Now, how do we tell from your coin?

 

1. The extra images are in the normal medal alignment (I assume this is normal for dengas - I don't know the series). Note the incuse lines at the eagle's tail and legs - normal alignment. I also note what appears to be an incuse, mirror-imaged 7 under the eagle's right leg. There's a lot of junk on the denga side. Tough to match with web images, but on the coin I think you'll find matches to the eagle's legs, neck, globe, etc.

 

2. The images are mirrored and incuse. The lines really show this as does the 7.

 

3. This was a pretty heavy clash.

 

When you see these features, it's a clash. The why is easy. The dies clash and receive a normal aligment raised image just as if a coin was struck. When a coin is struck, the raised image on the die now becomes incuse and mirrored. Take a normal well struck coin and photoshop it into a die - make sure you flip the image to get the mirror. Now superimpose that on the mating die and you'll see. Bingo, die clash!

 

Why isn't this something else?

 

As we saw in the 5K example, you have to come up with an extremely tortured chain of events to try and explain it otherwise. This is an immediate red flag. It is an axiom that if your explanation relies on mechanical improbabilites, pure luck, suspension of the laws of physics and acts of God, you're on the wrong path.

 

Think about it. Coin is struck just fine, then somehow gets back into the production stream, is mixed in with blank planchets, fed into the press and is restruck, magically landing in the dies in EXACTLY the same orientation as when first struck! This stream of events first pre-supposes that there is no normal care in the mint to separate planchets from struck coin. It then further supposes the most odd of all mechanical luck or act of God in getting the coin back into the press in normal alignment. OK, maybe it wasn't God, coulda been the Easter Bunny.

 

What do double-strikes and brockages really look like. Just do a web search. And, several over-strucks in Russian have been published here - not the same but similar. They all have the same basic charateristics especially the undertype in normal relief just as on a normal coin. Yes, the undertype is often nearly obliterated, especially in something as soft as copper, but it's there. That's another point - striking a coin DOES NOT harden it into prision grade steel. If a succeeding strike is sharp enuf, it will nearly obliterate the undertype. This is very common in the US Large Cent series. Often the undertype is only visible under good magnification on one of the sides. I've owned several like this. Sadly, they don't bring as much money as strong undertype. (BTW, I'll hazzard a guess that that's what LD's cent is, not a brockage maker as he implied. Looks the same as ones I owned. Perhaps why he didn't post blow-ups or show us the NGC label? A brockage maker in a screw press LC would be very, very rare and thousands of bucks. The error dealers would be all over him for it. I've only seen photos of a couple questionable pieces.)

 

Hope that answers. Cool coin. Can I use the images in my article???