Questions on CSA notes

[thedeadpoint]

This thread is a continuation of a conversation started in another thread

 

 

ALL genuine CSA notes, with the exception of the two Fifty Cent types, were hand signed.

 

Right now, most collector's refer to "the Big Six." These are six notes most collector's can't afford, all of which have between 100 and about 165 surviving examples known. The next level, with perhaps 200 to 500 surviving examples of each, aren't going to get easier, or cheaper. If there comes a time when there are 1000 SERIOUS collectors active....

 

Right now, many of the common notes are still relatively cheap. There are definitely a few sleepers in the series that are tougher to find in nice condition than the prices seem to indicate. Some of the 1864 notes are around $50 in uncirculated. A good portion of the series can be gotten in VG to F or better for under $200 per note, including several of the 1861 notes. What the future holds?

 

I found the above answers most interesting. I had NO IDEA that notes are hand-signed! That makes them all the more historically intriguing.

 

I'm also impressed that you can count on two hands the number of "Big" CSA notes. That means either many are collectable (which is good) or that CSA notes have been under-the-radar (compared to USA notes and coins) long enough to avoid a huge price surge. Basically, a very accessible niche of numismatics. Also, the fact that you can get a 140+ year old note in UNC for $50 is impressive.

 

 

What's a good starter series? I'm a pretty dedicated collector but I don't have a big budget, though I can hold off for those $500+ a pop notes every few months if I have to. Also, hailing from Va, I'd like to have a series related to home. I know a lot of the notes either are from Richmond (or nearby) or feature Richmond in some way. Any good tips on a Richmond note collection?

[Scottishmoney]

They were hand signed all right, but everybody and their mother signed them so that there are several hundred known signatures. Basically they were authorised signers, which gave an air of purported security, but in essence what with so many what was the point?

 

BTW notes were hand signed in Great Britain notably in Scotland and Northern Ireland into the 1940's, they were even hand dated on the larger denomination £20 notes. But in this instance only a couple of people, the head cashier, and an operating officer signed them.

[thedeadpoint]

But in this instance only a couple of people, the head cashier, and an operating officer signed them.

 

YOW! My hand hurts just thinking about all that signing!

[zaphod]

They were hand signed all right, but everybody and their mother signed them so that there are several hundred known signatures. Basically they were authorised signers, which gave an air of purported security, but in essence what with so many what was the point?

 

The earliest notes were signed by both the actual Register and Treasurer of the Confederate States. (The Register who signed the T-5 and T-6 notes was Robert Tyler -- son of President John Tyler.)

 

 

 

When production was increased, it became obvious that the notes could not all be signed by the same two persons, and clerks were hired to do the work. While there are hundreds of signature combinations possible, most came later in the War when counterfeiting was somewhat less of a problem. In any event, the signature ink is a distinctly different shade than the printing, and then as now, it is possible to spot a hand signed note from one with printed signatures. Since many of the known counterfeits have printed signatures, there is some security, though it's obviously not conclusive. There are counterfeits with forged signatures using the appropriate ("iron gall") ink.

 

The collector today has the luxury of being able to acquire a copy of the reprint of Raphael Thian's Register of the Confederate Debt which cross references the signers to the serial numbers of the notes they signed. Many a deceptive counterfeit can be detected by consulting this reference. I'm not sure what resources might have been available to bank tellers of the time.

[zaphod]

This thread is a continuation of a conversation started in another threadI'm also impressed that you can count on two hands the number of "Big" CSA notes. That means either many are collectable (which is good) or that CSA notes have been under-the-radar (compared to USA notes and coins) long enough to avoid a huge price surge. Basically, a very accessible niche of numismatics. Also, the fact that you can get a 140+ year old note in UNC for $50 is impressive.

What's a good starter series? I'm a pretty dedicated collector but I don't have a big budget, though I can hold off for those $500+ a pop notes every few months if I have to. Also, hailing from Va, I'd like to have a series related to home. I know a lot of the notes either are from Richmond (or nearby) or feature Richmond in some way. Any good tips on a Richmond note collection?

 

There IS that second level, just below the "Big Six" that's getting pricey. Decent examples, even with cut-out or hole-out cancels run four figures, and uncut higher grades have cracked five figures. There still is quite a variety of other notes available, especially if you do have a ceiling that, at times, can be stretched to or beyond $500. I'll try to come up with some sort of list of values as an example.

 

 

 

 

A good starter series might be the 1864 notes, as I posted on the other thread. The $500 is a little pricey, but the others are available in XF or better for about $100 or less per note. A total of $1600 can buy a nice set in uncirculated, with the $500 note accounting for about half of the expense.

 

All of the Confederate notes, except for T-1 through T-4, will say "Richmond" on them. In addition to the CSA treasury notes, there are also Virginia Treasury notes, City of Richmond fractional notes, and no doubt a number of individual Bank notes tied to Richmond. As someone who collects CSA treasury notes exclusively, I'm not the one to ask about these others, though a glance in one of the catalogs makes it seem like some of these are cheap.

[Scottishmoney]

 

I never really collected Confederate notes, but this is one I got for Christmas when I was about 12 yrs old. Funnily enough I remember approximately how much was paid for it then, and it has appreciated considerably, like now about 20X times what was paid for it then.

 

All Confederate notes have appreciated in the last 25 yrs, especially the ones before 1864.

[thedeadpoint]

Anyone know of a good, general, guide book to CSA notes? My Friedberg reference may cover CSA's but its a good many miles away.

[zaphod]

Anyone know of a good, general, guide book to CSA notes? My Friedberg reference may cover CSA's but its a good many miles away.

 

Probably the best first choice is still Comprehensive Catalog of Confederate Paper Money by Grover Criswell (1996). It not only contains much information on the types and varieties, but has a section on Civil War vintage counterfeits in the back. Some reference on counterfeits is vital, particularly to beginners. Thus far this year, I have gotten the attribution changed on two counterfeits listed as genuine in major Heritage auctions. The Criswell book does list prices, but these are well out-of-date.

 

For more information, there are the following:

Collecting Confederate Paper Money, by Pierre Fricke (2005)

Counterfeit Currency of the Confederate States of America , by George Tremmel (2003)

 

and for more advanced collectors, the 1972 reprint of

Register of the Confederate Debt, by Raphael Thian

 

This last is the one which cross references signers to serial numbers, but as it is a reprint of a book which predates all cataloging systems, it can be difficult, or at least tricky to use.

 

There are books by Slabaugh which have good information, but he uses a numbering system different from Criswells, and this will confuse a beginner. I have not examined anything later than a 7th edition (1991), so I can say nothing certain regarding the newer and larger editions.

[zaphod]

I promised some sort of indication of values. Here's a crude one to start:

 

Grading uncirculated, costing $100 or less:

There are 6 types still available at this level.

 

Grading VF or better, $100 or less:

25 types. *

 

Grading VG or better, $100 or less:

38 types.*

 

$500 limit:

54 types (add another 5 in grades AG or G).

 

$1000 limit:

Add roughly 5 more types.

 

_________

* Canceled notes were not included in this list. If accepting notes that were cut-canceled without paper loss (and a few types are difficult to find uncanceled), one or more additional notes can be found within these limits. Cut-out or hole-out cancels further reduce the cost, and additional notes may often be found within the limits.

[Vfox]

I'm always interested in obsolete notes, and it seems a good bit of the ones I own are considered confederate notes. Although I just consider them southern obsoletes, such as the Virginia Treasury $1 notes of 1862, or the Corporation of Richmond $1 notes of 1861, it seems most refer to them as "Confederate notes". Is this just because of the timeframe they fall under, or were they specifically issued for the CSA during the civil war era?

[zaphod]

I'm always interested in obsolete notes, and it seems a good bit of the ones I own are considered confederate notes. Although I just consider them southern obsoletes, such as the Virginia Treasury $1 notes of 1862, or the Corporation of Richmond $1 notes of 1861, it seems most refer to them as "Confederate notes". Is this just because of the timeframe they fall under, or were they specifically issued for the CSA during the civil war era?

 

I'm like you. I do NOT consider them Confederate notes, even though they were issued by banks or authorities within the Confederacy at the time. When I refer to Confederate notes, I am referring only to the notes issued by the Confederate government.

 

Some of the obsolete notes were issued as being payaple in Confederate currency, and I suppose this could be a gray (no pun intended) area for some, but I contend that referring to them as Confederate confuses the issue.

[thedeadpoint]

I'm always interested in obsolete notes, and it seems a good bit of the ones I own are considered confederate notes. Although I just consider them southern obsoletes, such as the Virginia Treasury $1 notes of 1862, or the Corporation of Richmond $1 notes of 1861, it seems most refer to them as "Confederate notes". Is this just because of the timeframe they fall under, or were they specifically issued for the CSA during the civil war era?

 

 

Hmm.. interesting. As a newbie I would have made the mistake of calling them CSA notes but I've never trekked through the world of 19th C notes.

[Vfox]

There is a book out now that is almost as thick as the Breen's guide called "Obsolete Paper Money 1782 - 1866". It is a wonderful and rather thorough guide to US obsoletes. I am looking to pick it up shortly myself. It will help me research a LOT better than I currently can from internet sources other than here.

[zaphod]

For those of you who like the history behind Confederate notes, you may enjoy this story. It is one of my favorites.

 

It concerns Major William F. Haines, who served as Quartermaster with the First Missouri Regiment under the command of Major General J.S. Bowen. Just before Vicksburg fell, he was ordered by General Bowen to destroy all remaining unissued Confederate currency to keep it from falling into Union hands. Haines did so. I have not been able to discover whether he evaded capture, or was paroled, but found himself in the South again, and on the hook for the missing currency. The Confederate Congress passed the following law to releive him of responsibility.

 

"PRIVATE LAWS OF THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA, PASSED AT THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE FIRST CONGRESS

 

Joint resolution for the relief of W. F. Haines. Feb. 16, 1864.

 

Preamble. WHEREAS, W. F. Haines, Quartermaster of Major General Bowen's division, immediately before the capitulation of Vicksburg was consummated, destroyed a large sum of treasury notes belonging to the Government to prevent said notes from falling into the hands of the public enemy: And whereas, the Treasury Department has no legal authority to give credit for the notes so destroyed: Therefore, Major W. F. Haines to have credit at the treasury for treasury notes destroyed. Resolved by the Congress of the Confederate States of America, That the Treasury Department give the said Major W. F. Haines, in the settlement of his accounts as said quartermaster, credit for the amount of treasury notes belonging to the Government, which he may show by satisfactory evidence, to have been destroyed by him at Vicksburg, by order of Major General Bowen. APPROVED February 16, 1864."

 

 

I purchased the above note about six years ago, before learning the history of the man whose signature it bears.

 

Five and a half years later, another Haines signed note appeared on eBay -- consecutive to this one, and signed the same day! The other note has a faint ink stain on the back, the exact size and shape of the ink-burned area on this one. I am convinced that one note was on top of the other when inscribed. Needless to say, I was the most agressive bidder, and the two notes have been reunited.