More Russian coin lots from July...

[gxseries]

Well actually they were bought some time ago except I was too busy to even post them.

 

Regardless, here are the pictures and illustrations:

 

 

A fair amount of the Russian ancient cities 10 ruble bimetal coins. If people did recognize, yes, I bought two coins from Civitas Galleries which is the 1731 denga and the 1804 5 kopeks. Here are larger pictures of the 4 coins that I thought was really neat:

 

1731 denga overstruck on 1730 denga (?!)

It seems that this denga was overstruck on a previous year coin. But on why this was done - I cannot explain it. Nevertheless, this is not an easy coin in relatively high grade as well.

 

1804 5 kopeks EM

Very strong XF 5 kopeks, except for the terrible gorging there, else it would be a stunning coin.

 

1841 3 kopeks EM

A VF coin, cleaned, stratched, banged etc but I couldn't care as such coins are getting VERY difficult to find in relatively good grades, especially 3 kopeks - or rather, try looking for one. They are getting ridiciously hard to find in cheap prices.

 

1993 50 rubles LMD - Far Eastern Stock

A commemorative coin that is pretty common, but note of the plug error - which is not easy to find.

 

That is pretty much all of the interesting coins that I have this month (or last month). Hope you enjoyed it.

[grivna1726]

I particularly like the 1731 denga. That's a very nice example for the type.

 

I can't explain this as an overstrike on a 1730 denga except to suggest that it is an error.

 

However, the apparent exact placement of the double lines below the date (which run across the eagle's legs, tail and orb) seems a possible but unlikely chance alignment of the undercoin in the dies.

 

That suggests the possibility that the alignment was deliberate for some unknown reason, which in turn suggests that it wasn't an accident.

 

 

It is also odd that the lines do not appear on the eagle itself. If the lines were present on the coin prior to overstriking, I would expect them to be more visible on the eagle and less prominent in the fields. Remember, the fields are the part of the coin receiving the real pressure when the coin is struck and that causes the metal of the coin to flow into the recessed portions of the die.

 

For example, here is a detail image of the 1808KM 5k I showed earlier. It appears that there was a scratch on the flan before it was struck. When it was struck, the scratch was obliterated in the fields, but can still be seen running across the eagle's necks.

 

 

This leads me to wonder if your coin is not an overstrike, but instead the result of clashed dies.

 

If your coin is not an error and really is an overstrike, then the most likely undertype is a copper kopek of the 1704-1718 type.

[gxseries]

Grivna, you are always sharp to the point!!! Indeed it might be a clash die and I had to reconsider the possibilities.

 

I have uploaded slightly bigger images and will try again later if this isn't enough.

 

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/1513/dengalargef7gu.jpg

 

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7545/dengalargeb3ji.jpg

 

If you look at the digit in the ball, I can't quite see how it looks like a one instead of a zero. Indeed in theory about overstruck coins, the areas of underlying that should feature out is the recessed portions of the metal that was in the engraved section of the die. But this is only assuming if the planchet was smooth enough to begin with and as well as the striking of the die relative to the coin is exactly flat 180 degrees. In some of the bizarre overstruck coins that I have that is the most common series, such theory do not apply due to the complexity of the crudity of the striking and metal planchets.

 

This is one such example:

 

 

So perhaps, if it is indeed a clash die, would this mean that a clashed die used in 1730 was used to strike this particular coin in 1731? It most certain is possible to do, but I did find that wierd in the first place.

 

The other trouble that I had is with the obverse of the coin, that is the surface where it depicts the "DENGA - 1731". What I should be expecting is the image of the double head eagle, or even an clashed image of such, but interestingly it seems to be of some other design which I am not too sure what it is. It might be the horse rider, but I cannot confirm at the moment...

[Tiffibunny]

Very nice stuff!

[grivna1726]

Thank you for the larger images.

 

I think this is a die clash rather than an overstrike.

 

If it is an overstrike, the remaining portions of the design that were raised up will be flattened, but still slightly higher than what was the surrounding field.

 

Now imagine the dies striking together without a blank between them. Portions of the design from each die will transfer to the other. So what was a recessed area of one die will be faintly transferred to the other die but as a slightly raised portion (as each die treats the other as a blank).

 

Remember that what is raised up on a die will be recessed on a coin and what is recessed on the die will be raised up on the coin.

 

So, in an overstrike, the devices such as the lettering and the eagle will still be slightly raised up on the portions of the coin where traces of the undertype can still be seen (such as the clear "КО" of "КОПЕИКА" seen as the surviving undertype on this coin you showed):

 

But when it is a die clash, the image of the other die will appear on the coin as it appeared on the original die, with the devices recessed, and in mirror image.

 

To see what I mean, look at this 1841 5 Rubles coin struck from clashed dies. There are many areas where evidence of clashing can be seen, but the easiest area to see is probably the fields on either side of the "5" in "5 РУБЛЕЙ". The "5" is framed by traces of the incused or recessed image of the eagle's heads and necks.

 

This is typical of a die clash. If this were an overstrike, the design of the eagle heads and necks would be raised up and not pressed in on the coin surface.

 

 

Now look at the lines on your 1731 denga. The lines appear to me to be pressed in to the surface of the coin, as does the area between the eagle's tailfeathers and the leg which holds the orb. If I am seeing this correctly, then I think this is fairly convincing evidence of die clashing rather than overstriking.

[gxseries]

Thanks again for the constructive critism Grivna, I really appericate it. That gold ruble is indeed the best example of a die clash and I was reminded of an example that I have and can understand the meaning of such:

 

 

Indeed it is similar to your example there Grivna and I can perfectly understand.

 

Perhaps it is indeed a die clash, but what leaves me unsatisifed is the digits "30" that is evident at the bottom right.

 

What exactly would it mean? The reverse, double head eagle die, which was a die clashed back in 1730 was continued to be used in 1731? Most definately not unusual, but I would expect more similiar varities to appear, but unfortunately haven't seen any so far.

 

I have seen similiar die clash varities of 5 kopeks and 5 rubles before, but not on a denga that shows two different years... Would you know any examples of such, Grivna or Julian?

[grivna1726]

Thanks again for the constructive critism Grivna, I really appericate it. That gold ruble is indeed the best example of a die clash and I was reminded of an example that I have and can understand the meaning of such:

 

 

Indeed it is similar to your example there Grivna and I can perfectly understand.

 

gx, that is an excellent example of a die clash, even easier to see than on the gold coin. The recessed outline of the eagle's necks & wings is quite clear. Neat coin!

 

 

Perhaps it is indeed a die clash, but what leaves me unsatisifed is the digits "30" that is evident at the bottom right.

 

 

gx, I don't see the "30" you mention.

 

Imagine that the picture of your denga shown above was an open book, with each side of the coin occupying a page in the book. If you close the book, where the images of the 2 sides would touch each other is where the dies would have met when they clashed.

 

The "30" image would be a mirror image, with left and right reversed. So if there is a "30", those ghosted digits would appear around the eagle's leg which holds the scepter (not the one which holds the orb).

 

If I am misunderstanding you, please post an image with the "30" outlined (in the way you did with your 1730 Anna ruble) so that I will know for sure what you mean.

 

Thanks!

[gxseries]

Grivna, I was terribly mistaken and I had to check with a loupe to confirm what exactly it is. I am starting to edge towards the idea that this coin is perhaps an error brockage, and this was an attempt to cover up the error.

 

 

My first confirmation of that idea is only after realizing that what I originally thought to be the number 3 is actually number 7 inverted. As well as, since the number 7 is actually indented clearly, this cannot be explained in terms of die clashing, or else such clarity is near impossible under clashing.

 

 

Perhaps what makes it MORE confusing is the existance of the letter "D" and "A", where I would be expecting a "D" and "H"

 

Most definately confusing, but I guess the mystery continues...