1766CM Overstrike

[STEVE MOULDING]

Well I have to admit I'm having a hard time here. GX and Squirrel (privately) have done a great job trying to match more features. Squirrel took the Top of the T as given, then went on to look for hints of the flags and cannons based on a high quality image from AAlborg II. GX identified a possible foot of the large '1' (at which point the T-top doesn't fit) and then found several other features which, as yet, I can't see

 

We also know that there were several dies used in the 1762 10Ks and choosing a different one as the reference layer in photoshop is going to give different placements for other features. Likewise, if the top-of-theT rotational alignment is out by even a little, other features further away are going to out of position by a lot more (making it difficult to match). I've seen a reference 10K where the top-of-the-T is actually sloped a few degrees and that would throw everything off.

 

I'll look some more, but this one may have to remain in the class of 'possible', and I would still hope that someday we'll see some stronger evidence.

 

Thanks everyone for the comments and hard work

 

Steve

[gxseries]

Steve, would you by any chance have any images of a bizarre looking 1762 10 kopek that has been struck at least twice or more? I'm hoping that Squirrel can see what I am looking at.

[squirrel]

I would agree Steve. Having seen the high res. image of the "T" this is a clearly stuck feature, not an illusion (ink blot analogy) seen in corrosion or swirls of dirt/patina etc. or random metal flow.

 

The conclusions can be drawn from that evidence alone.

 

I say overstrike.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Steve, would you by any chance have any images of a bizarre looking 1762 10 kopek that has been struck at least twice or more? I'm hoping that Squirrel can see what I am looking at.

I don't immediately recall seeing a double struck 10K but I'll take another look. I have images of at least 100 10Ks

 

Steve

[RARENUM]

Well I have to admit I'm having a hard time here. GX and Squirrel (privately) have done a great job trying to match more features. Squirrel took the Top of the T as given, then went on to look for hints of the flags and cannons based on a high quality image from AAlborg II. GX identified a possible foot of the large '1' (at which point the T-top doesn't fit) and then found several other features which, as yet, I can't see

 

We also know that there were several dies used in the 1762 10Ks and choosing a different one as the reference layer in photoshop is going to give different placements for other features. Likewise, if the top-of-theT rotational alignment is out by even a little, other features further away are going to out of position by a lot more (making it difficult to match). I've seen a reference 10K where the top-of-the-T is actually sloped a few degrees and that would throw everything off.

 

I'll look some more, but this one may have to remain in the class of 'possible', and I would still hope that someday we'll see some stronger evidence.

 

Thanks everyone for the comments and hard work

 

Steve

Hi Steve,

I did not find any details undertype for 5 kop.CM 1764-1767 in my collection. Will post images later.

Rarenum.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Hi Steve,

I did not find any details undertype for 5 kop.CM 1764-1767 in my collection. Will post images later.

Rarenum.

Thank you very much for checking!

 

GX, I can't see any double struck 10Ks. There are plenty that show a lot of Elizabeth under-coin, but none that shows an obvious double-strike error.

 

Steve

[squirrel]

GX, I do see the areas you see. The double strike eludes me, but the area of curl at the foot of the "1" is interesting.

 

here are the two areas that caught my eye. The upper right arrow points to what could be tips of the 2 flagpoles at 4 o'clock. The lower arrow points to what could be the breach (back end) of the cannon.

[RARENUM]

GX, I do see the areas you see. The double strike eludes me, but the area of curl at the foot of the "1" is interesting.

 

here are the two areas that caught my eye. The upper right arrow points to what could be tips of the 2 flagpoles at 4 o'clock. The lower arrow points to what could be the breach (back end) of the cannon.

I can see only flow metal ,then was struck.

[gxseries]

Here is a rough flash video that I made that I believe the orientation should be (Flash player will be required) - a lot easier to describe with pictures instead of verbal words. I might be off with the second image but I am sure the orientation of the first one is right.

 

Please kindly spare a minute to view the contrasting feature - I hope this is more useful especially to pinpoint where I was highlighting.

 

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1766contrastvj6.swf

 

It does get dizzy after some time. Note, you can increase the resolution up to 1000x1000

[STEVE MOULDING]

:

It does get dizzy after some time. Note, you can increase the resolution up to 1000x1000

:

 

Very nice job...it definitely illustrates your point (would also make a nice screensaver). I still need to look at it some more as parts of the cannon/drum I still don't see yet.

 

About the double-struck undercoin theory. It's an interesting interpretation but it does seem unlikely. A grossly double-struck 1762 10K cannot have been very common (I don't see any in my 100+ database examples. The combined probability of finally seeing a post-1763 CM overstrike along with a double-struck 10K (which I've yet to see) is going to be very small. Not impossible, mind you, but unlikely. We'd have to be really lucky to discover both in one coin. Even if we were to accept this as an overstrike I'd say any extra features would be more likely to come from an Elizabeth 5K under-under-coin.

 

I'm not sure anyone has looked for double struck Peter III coppers before (in any denomination). We do see many 10K undercoins on CPM and EM and MM 5Ks so possibly we can find a double-10K there...yet another thing to start looking for (though I think that's less important than finding a CM overstrike).

 

Steve

[gxseries]

Steve, there are times that I wonder about how overstriking can be an excellent opportunity to get rid of problematic coins. Bill Synder has a wonderful off center 5 kopek coin that was overstruck to the Baroque kopek:

 

 

Thanks Bill

 

I really have no idea how common such error coins exist which overstriking is used to fix up "problems".

[grivna1726]

Bill Synder has a wonderful off center 5 kopek coin that was overstruck to the Baroque kopek:

 

 

That is a really neat coin!

[STEVE MOULDING]

Steve, there are times that I wonder about how overstriking can be an excellent opportunity to get rid of problematic coins. Bill Synder has a wonderful off center 5 kopek coin that was overstruck to the Baroque kopek:

 

Thanks Bill

 

I really have no idea how common such error coins exist which overstriking is used to fix up "problems".

Hi GX. I think if the mint caught an error in time, they'd likely overstrike it immediately (to the same denomination) and release it. If such a corrected coin later came back to the mint for overstriking (as the copper standard changed) we'd get a new denomination with a double-struck under-coin.

 

If the mint didn't correct the error, the coin would go out into circulation. There's no real point keeping it on hand waiting for a possible future overstriking program. The coin you've shown (very nice ) is likely a circulating error 5K that came back to the mint later.

 

Steve