bahabully Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Just sold a bunch of old wheat cents on ebay. Within the text of each auction I stated that if the buyer opted to use paypal that we split the surcharges. One buyer objected after winning an auction and said that it's a violation of ebay policy to do that. Didn't know that. Looked it up and sure enough,,, ~ " extra surcharges imposed on buyers who opt to use paypal or a credit card are not allowed " ,,,,, so it's a reasonable challenge. My intrepretation of the policy is that "extra" means "in addition" to pre-existing paypal charges and that "splitting" pre-existing charges is not a violation,,, especially when it clearly stated in the text of the auction, and the amount of the surcharge split is also clearly stated in the text of the auction. I'll let everyone know what ebay comes back with..... but what do you think? Is splitting paypal surcharges an ebay violation,,, or not?,,,,, and should it be a violation,,, or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 It is a violation no matter which way you "spin" it. You choose to use paypal then you pay the charges...it's that simple... if you do use paypal you should learn the things that you are not allowed to do before you use the service....EBay dosen't care if you didn't know or not as it is your responsibility to read the information provided...arguing about it and sending them e mails has and will never work...I just hope that they don't suspend your account (Can you guys tell what I think of EBay sellers that choose to use this practice??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Is it an Ebay violation? Yes, I believe it to be in violation of Ebays rules. Does it matter to me? Nope. As long as all the fees and postage and handling and shipping are stated up front in the auction, I could not care less how the seller splits it all up. I just take it all into account when I place my bid. A $10 coin with $3 shipping and $2 handling and $1 for paypal fees, gets a $4 bid from me. A $10 coin with free shipping and no other fees, gets a $10 bid from me. Etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I just don't bid on their auctions...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I don't mind doing the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I don't like math.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dockwalliper Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I don't like math.... So, If I come into your shop, purchase a bunch of coins, I can add up the prices myself and then the 10% CP discount? I wouldn't want to put you out...I don't mind...I'm really good at MATH...especially when it involves me spending money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 no, I have calculators for that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I don't like the idea of paypal charges being passed on to the buyer. It is against the rules and it's also clear that the seller can establish a no fee paypal account and only accept that account as payment. I know there are a few folks who have free accounts and still charge back the paypal fee to the buyer - a little extra profit. Don't agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 50cents Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 If a seller accept paypal he should pay the fees..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bahabully Posted September 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 It is a violation no matter which way you "spin" it. You choose to use paypal then you pay the charges...it's that simple... if you do use paypal you should learn the things that you are not allowed to do before you use the service....EBay dosen't care if you didn't know or not as it is your responsibility to read the information provided...arguing about it and sending them e mails has and will never work...I just hope that they don't suspend your account(Can you guys tell what I think of EBay sellers that choose to use this practice??) Ahhhh come on. You really take that hard a line on this, even though the surcharge split is openly disclosed in the text of the auction and includes the cost of the surcharge. So even though the buyer is fully aware of cost and the source of the cost you'd still disallow it? I think your selling the savy of the ebaying public a bit short,,, I think they can do the math,,, I think it's not a matter of a seller taking advantage,,, and I think that it's fair to both parties so long as they mutually agree to known terms in advance of a purchase. I have more important things to do than point/click and navigate through the entire volume of ebay's policies and practicies,,, Generally use the law of common sense and try my best to be up front and honest when selling,, and ALWAYS intentionally undergrade any coin I sell,, which I think has made a few folks pretty happy..... and demonstrates that I could give a crud about making a dime on any coin I've ever purchased,,, although giving them away at a significantly lower cost than I purchased them for bugs me,,,, which is why I try to split the pain of the: ebay listing fee ebay final sale fee paypal .30 fee paypal 2.9% sale fee stamp envelope gas.... and my time (of which I've none if spent reading ebay policy). I think the differentiation between "extra" and "split" is a real one...... and apparently most ebayer can do the math and don't mind a bit,,,, as most of my recent auction winners have paid via paypal with no complaints, and have split the surcharge with me. It's convenient for both parties to use, and if mutually agreed the cost of the convenience and security should be allowed to be split,,, IMO. Good stuff.,,,, I'll let ya know what ebay says when they reply to my query. I was, by the way, not at all argumentive in my query to them. Simply asked the question regarding an agreed split of charges and fully intent to follow thier guidance. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 ebay listing fee: You Pay that ebay final sale fee: You Pay That paypal .30 fee :You Again paypal 2.9% sale fee :You stamp: You use stamps??? envelope :Included in Shipping as postage should be as well gas.... and my time (of which I've none if spent reading ebay policy). : You and You (and you should really try it) so basically you are fed up with E Bay all the Profit it takes from you YET you undergrade your coins???? So you ask them really nicely and they throw you a few more bucks??? Why don't you just grade your coins right make a little more money so you don't have to ask for a few extra bucks?????? I'm suprised you haven't received more nasty e mails.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I don't mean to come off like a jerk here...but that's like me asking someone who buys a coin from my shop to toss in a few extra dollars so I can keep the light bill paid... It dosen't work like that...If the EBay fees are too much then just don't use it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burks Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 That's why I basically stopped using Ebay. I got tired of paying $3+ for shipping and it comes in a plain letter envelope with a $0.37 stamp attached. Complete rip-off. As for the extra charge, if you have a problem with it then start accepting money orders. Simple as that. To me you are paying an extra charge to get your money right then and now. Wait a couple extra days and you don't have to worry about paying for your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlavicScott Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I deal with this stuff the same way StuJoe does. I factor all the costs into the equation when determining my final bid. I am willing to bid a little higher if the seller accepts PayPal. It saves me the time and money of either mailing a check, or purchasing a money order. I often see that I AM paying the PayPal fees (i.e. within the $4.00 shipping charges), but as long as the equation works out, that is fine with me. If the bidding gets too high, I walk away. I also disagree with the idea of "splitting" fees. If you don't want to have to absorb the fees from PayPal, then you have options. [*]Don't accept PayPal[*]Increase your opening bid to include the fees[*]Increase your postage & handling costs to include the fees. Another point to consider. If you are more than just the "occasional seller", get a second checking account, and open a second PayPal account, keeping one as a "Personal" account (no credit card payments, no fees), and the other as the "Premier" account (accepts credit cards, fees on all transactions). From my experience, the majority of buyers using PayPal tend to use either account balances or bank account transfers (NOT credit cards), and these transactions can be done "Fee free". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I agree with everyone else that it is a violation to charge anything additional for using Paypal in an eBay auction, which is why I don't use Paypal in any of my auctions. Plus I have a personal account and can't accept credit card payments, and they made it a violation to try to take Paypal from only non-credit card sources. However, in thinking about what I would do if I ever wanted to ramp up my activity on eBay (like liquidating my collection, not now, but someday), and I thought about creative ways to attract buyers with terms. So let me throw out this idea and see what you think. You cannot charge fees for Paypal, but the policy says nothing about offering discounts for cash, check or money orders. What if someone offered say a 2% discount for using those forms of payment would you take advantage of it? I figure the buyer gets to choose, either they save 2% by sending me a check, or that don't and pay the full price with Paypal. From a seller perspective, I can avoid 0.9% in fees for those who choose to pay by non PP means, but still offer them the flexibility of all payment methods. Further this would increase bidding in general as the person going in with the discount in mind will likely make that one extra bid that causes his PP counterpart to match. Anyhow, I guess having an MBA in finance makes you think about these things too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 There are too many times when I am going to agree and disagree on this point. Let's admit this, whatever we say, cash still rules. Screw cheque, money order or credit cards. In some businesses in quite a fair bit of countries, (I don't know how this works in the US though), if you use credits cards other than visa or probably master cards or American Express in the US, quite a fair bit of retailers will either reject your card, or if they do, they DO charge commission. Now getting back into the story. You should notice that paypal is now proudly owned by scambay.If we included lame scambay and paypal fee's you should notice that sellers aren't that "happy". Oh my - not a suprise. Not only do the sellers HAVE to pay the lame listing fees which cost almost nothing, except getting new servers and maintence, scambay gets extra revenue from their little brother. Oh my, how helpful. And let's say you sold an item for 10 dollars. Listing fees? 30 cents. (assuming that you listed it as 0.01 dollar) Auction fees? 2% was it? Let's make it 20cents Paypal lame fees? 30cents + 4% i.e. 70cents. Grand total fee? 1.20. More than 10% of revenue is gone through this. Repeat that for several items and that hurts. DID ANYONE BOTHER TO EVEN CALCULATE THIS?! My point is this: Too many small little items which may seem to be a bargain DOES hurt the seller. If you sell big items that might cost more than 100 dollars or even better more than 1 grand, that's great, as there is a cap of how expensive things can get "taxed" by scambay. Yes, I do get disgusted by the price of sellers when they do charge extra. It just makes calculations too difficult. But look on the other side, if you can transfer money as cheaply as possible, everyone is happy except from the loanshark credit card companies. Forget money order or cheques. The buyer still HAS to purchase them and there ARE fees in there. And this is not considered as "illegal"? Just because it's not under scambay's policy means that it's perfectly ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 You cannot charge fees for Paypal, but the policy says nothing about offering discounts for cash, check or money orders. What if someone offered say a 2% discount for using those forms of payment would you take advantage of it? I believe ebay's paypal policy also bars you from offering a discount for a non-paypal payments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Myself: Buying: Factor in all total costs. This includes actual bid, p/p, and potential customs charges. This often results in a low bid. Hey, I go on ebay usually to look for stuff I want at prices I'm willing to pay. If I do the math, and it's too much, I don't bid. Selling: Total postage, packaging, ebay and potential paypal fees are factored into the s/h charge. I do a flat-rate charge, and don't charge extra for overseas, so I break even or gain a little on single-item sales, and lose on multiple-item sales, which is okay, since the bids/sales generally are higher as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I believe ebay's paypal policy also bars you from offering a discount for a non-paypal payments. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was going to ask similar. When I was living in San Antonio, there was a discount computer hardware store that gave a 3% discout for cash or check. Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that they were marking everything up 3% to cover their Visa fees and then just knocking it off to those that didn't use Visa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Well, the whole reason for not charging fees has to do with federal law doesn't it? Isn't there a law that prohibits charging additional fees for using credit cards if you choose to accept them as a business? But the loophole was always to offer a cash discount (like gas stations used to do). Offering discounts for cash or early payment has been around long before eBay, Paypal or credit cards, so I see no reason why it couldn't still work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Well, the whole reason for not charging fees has to do with federal law doesn't it? Isn't there a law that prohibits charging additional fees for using credit cards if you choose to accept them as a business? But the loophole was always to offer a cash discount (like gas stations used to do). Offering discounts for cash or early payment has been around long before eBay, Paypal or credit cards, so I see no reason why it couldn't still work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am not sure if it is a federal law, a California (or other state's) law or just a rule of the credit card companies but I do know it is not just an Ebay thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Auction houses around here do it, lets say their buyers premium is 13%, they offer 3% off is paying with cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bahabully Posted September 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2005 That's why I basically stopped using Ebay. I got tired of paying $3+ for shipping and it comes in a plain letter envelope with a $0.37 stamp attached. Complete rip-off. As for the extra charge, if you have a problem with it then start accepting money orders. Simple as that. To me you are paying an extra charge to get your money right then and now. Wait a couple extra days and you don't have to worry about paying for your money. I do take Mo's... personnal check.... barter...wampam,,, whatever. I'm not a dealer, just a joe collector who sells a few coins every now and then in order to get running money for buying new one. Which gets to be quite a downhill ride when paying fee's at every turn. Ebay is convenient and I don't mind thier charges. Palpal is convenient and provides a nice bit of security to the buyer, but aaaaagain, I don't see the rub if a buyer and seller to agree to split any associated charges for those services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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