Cataloguing Russian fake coins (counterfeits, fakes, imitation, fantasy, replica, copy, false) on OmniCoin.com

[extant4cell]

I know I promised to check Ron's database, and still have very little time this time of the year, so my apologies, I haven't done that yet. However, I had a thought on that subject. Why don't we utilze OmniCoin.com for cataloguing Russian problem coins?

 

All we need to do, is to include these coins in our collection with "fake" written in the coin description at the end of its full description. I can hear people not being happy about this...

 

But what about if we approach OmniCoin admin with such request: creating a login and password as for a separate "fakes collector" who only collects Russian fakes and ask OmniCoin admin to give us login and password by PM, so we all would be able to add only Russian counterfeits, fakes, imitation, fantasy, replica, copy, false coins?

 

If this is done, we can easily find fakes on OmniCoin for a reference by searching "russia fake".

 

We can include all of these in that collection under one roof, with an easy search option:

http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+copy

http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+fantasy

http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+counterfeit

http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=false+russia

 

and these ones: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=(counterfeit,fake,imitation,fantasy)+russia+coin&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENAU358&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GaR3UbvrI-W7iAfx_oHQCw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1187&bih=606#rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENAU358&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fake+russia+coin&oq=fake+russia+coin&gs_l=img.12...8903.9995.2.12498.4.4.0.0.0.0.1882.1882.8-1.1.0...0.0...1c.1.11.img.bjMUqRYPiGM&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45580626,d.cGE&fp=7e4d7b334515c81c&biw=1187&bih=606

 

These searches would be easily replaced by one:

http://www.omnicoin....s_a=russia+fake

 

and once "coins" are cataloged, we'll be able to do a search by year like this (1867 is an example):

http://www.omnicoin....ussia+fake+1867

 

these searches do not return the results at the moment, but if we all help, with ease, data-base will be full in a space of a year, and we'll have a resourse for new or irregular Russian coins collectors.

 

Can we approach OmniCoin admin with such a request? What do you think, would you be able to help?

[Guest rnsdb]

Ex, I can offer my thoughts fwiw

 

1. There's no support for a consolidated source of forgeries, at least on coinpeople, where collectors appear to be okay with ad hoc approaches or else feel forgeries are so good as to be undetectable, making the whole thing hopeless.

2. Without such support, there's no indication of any incentive to volunteer the input required to make such a source useful

3. The Omni design to my mind has enough limitations to make it of very limited usefulness

 

a. It's not a SQL relational database, but an image/text site with primitive search requiring multiple steps, and almost no sort/filter capabilities. The standard to compare against would be the coin test database which would bring these limitations into sharp focus

b. Look through the descriptions. 10, ten, kopec, kopeyki, kopeck, denga, denezka, 1/2 kopeck, 1/2 kop. Ivan, Ivann, Ioann, Peter, Piter, Elizabeth, Elisabetha, forgery, fake, counterfeit, counterfit, fantasy, etc. It's a kludge. How can a primative search function deal with that? An SQL relational database avoids this by the use of codes to represent most data such as czar, denomination, metal etc. One code "F" in a master record is all that's used to extract forgeries, which can then be sorted and filtered as required: czar, denomination, year, metal etc. See HERE

c. There's no 1 line/item listing which would allow filtering and scroll browsing 50 items all on one screen, with an ability to switch/explode to the detail of just one item. This is a showstopper.

d. There's no side by side images to compare the original with the forgery

e. 6 images are needed, not the 2 allowed by Omni. Obverse/reverse/edge for both the original and the forgery HERE

f. The text box is too limited in size. Multiple paragraphs may be required in some cases to adequately evaluate the forgery

g. Entering the forgery data requires repeating too much data that should already be there. Czar, denomination, metal, date, mint, mintmaster, size, weight, fineness, legend, etc. All these basics would already be there in a coin SQL database

h. There's nothing to prevent 10 people from entering the same identical forgery 10 different times with 10 different descriptions

i. You have to specify which Brekke/Severin/Julian/Uz variety is being forged, not just the date and denomination. This means you need to reference their books which many people don't have. The data to determine that would already be in a coin SQL relational database

 

j. But by far the most important of all, forgeries are just a small part of a bigger picture. There's no reason for forgeries to be singled out for special treatment and design. Someone else might suggest an effort on overdates, another on overstrikes, another on errors, another on patterns etc. You wind up with a hodge-podge of piecemeal efforts, all stepping over each other entering the same basic data, all spelling the same thing different ways. and all going to multiple sites. An integrated SQL relational database avoids all that and allows everybody's focus and point of view to be accommodated. This whether it's SQL Access on the desktop, as with the current test database with a defined user control panel interface, 30 data fields, defined queries, display and report formats or whether it's a MS SQL/MYSQL relational database on a remote server, with all of those yet to be defined

 

Ex, you have a good idea, but until enough collectors (10?) can see value by trying it out via a trial run, and then after that concluding that the value to them is great enough to justify their participation but also being dependent on others also participating, I'm afraid it won't take hold. And you can see from the coins test database, there's no interest in trying it out, even if you had a final design and code ready for trial.

 

But I have to say though, that I hope it doesn't take hold. All those images and descriptions belong once in a SQL database. All that energy expended would yield a hundred fold return if it were put into an SQL relational database, whether on the desktop or on a remote server.

 

Ron

[extant4cell]

I'm sorry Ron, you lost me with all the technical jargon. Your message is very long, and although you mean well, I've lost an interest in reading it somewhere half way, and that was a challenge to get to its end. My point is not to create a perfect numismatic tool with deep research in every fake coin and connections to the references. This would be a time waster for me. My aim is to create a searchable internet based quick image reference tool, with minimal information. The aim of the tool to help collectors by warning them about possible forgeries of Russian coins and showing them examples, not to give them an in-depth analysis of why a fake is considered to be a fake, as this information can also be utilized by producers of these fakes to perfect them. Once the "coin" is established to be a fake, it's image is inserted into internet based searchable database for all to see. Minimal time om my behalf, benefits to me and others. Omnicoin, or any more sophisticated modern similar platform will suffice this project and may even become a source for such endeavors as yours. And it may grow to include other countries, as forgery is a common problem for all numismatic collections and collectors...

[Guest rnsdb]

EX, why do you want to invest months/years in designing and coding even a minimal forgery system or try to persuade Omni to do it when everything you want to do is in the test database? You can enter any level of information you want, from bare bones to elaborate. Establishing a coin to be a fake and putting it's image into a searchable database is exactly what the test database does. But with the added ability to filter, eg show only 5K copper forgeries of Catherine II

 

All you have to do is confirm it can do what you want by entering a few forgeries, and if it does, use your experience to convince a few others to do the same. I'm pretty sure others you hope to bring on board are going to have some of the same concerns I had

 

Ron

[extant4cell]

So that everyone would be able to use it and contribute to it from the start. So it is simple. Not too technical, and is user friendly.

[STEVE MOULDING]

So, on the back of IT I'm putting in place at rnumis, I've spent a couple of days putting together an uploader + database for Russian Fakes as a basic demonstration. I still need to write the data-viewer (the important part for end users) but that's relatively easy.

 

You can find the uploader at

 

http://www.rnumis.co..._research_0.php

 

(It looks much better in firefox & chrome, though IE will work. Haven't tried Safari or Opera)

 

It was designed to be simple - 2 images + year + denomination. Optional description/notes. And that's it. Click upload (assuming you're logged in) and the coin gets written to the database and will be immediately viewable by the world. I'll load in some fake-images that I have to get it started and will report back when the viewer is ready.

 

This is not the be-all and end-all, just an illustration of what's possible.

 

[extant4cell]

Looks good in Firefox. No problem with loading. Cannot wait to see what the end result will be.

[STEVE MOULDING]

The dataviewer for the demonstration Russian Fakes database is now live at

 

http://www.rnumis.co...gtyp_rf_gallery

 

 

The coins there so far are for illustration only and I'll replace then soon. To upload or edit entries you will need a login (send me a PM).

 

To add comments or view the coins, no login is needed.

 

[STEVE MOULDING]

The illustrative coins have been replaced with 'real' fakes . Those of you who requested logins, please feel free to start uploading.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve

[extant4cell]

Thank you Steve, really good job for a start! Now we have a simple enough tool that can be developed further as the time goes by.

 

I am going to promote that with other users worldwide and I hope it will start growing quickly. I'll put this link ( http://www.rnumis.com/rnumis_research_0.php?db_pgtyp=db_pgtyp_rf_gallery ) in my bookmarks and contribute to the database as time permits.

 

Steve, can you please add the key words to the page's title? Not for display, but for the search engines to catch (see tags for samples).

 

Ron, hope you can also contribute to this and see the usefulness of the project. Thank you all, now lets add all these fakes to the data-base!

[Candidate]

I have collected a not so small archive of fake Russian coins pictures, total of maybe 100MB or more. Unfortunately, I have no time to sort, describe and, especially,upload those pictures to above described web-site one by one. If someone will be willing to do this job, I can share my archive - just please let me know.

[extant4cell]

Happy to help. Sent you PM...

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thank you Steve, really good job for a start! Now we have a simple enough tool that can be developed further as the time goes by.

It's basic, but you get the idea.

 

Steve, can you please add the key words to the page's title? Not for display, but for the search engines to catch (see tags for samples).

I added a description meta tag in the html as recommended by the SEO folks. My understanding is that keyword meta tags are a thing of the past and search engines don't use them, but I could be wrong.

 

 

I am going to promote that with other users worldwide and I hope it will start growing quickly. I'll put this link ( http://www.rnumis.co...gtyp_rf_gallery ) in my bookmarks and contribute to the database as time permits.

I sent a PM with details of the new loginIDs you requested for your contacts.

Anybody else need one?

 

[gxseries]

I like the visual friendly-ness of the site. Will be uploading some of my fakes when I get around to this weekend.

[extant4cell]

Already over 80 fakes entered. Do what I can.

[Candidate]

I have collected a not so small archive of fake Russian coins pictures, total of maybe 100MB or more. Unfortunately, I have no time to sort, describe and, especially,upload those pictures to above described web-site one by one. If someone will be willing to do this job, I can share my archive - just please let me know.

Here's some - in 65 MB ".rar" archive.

[Guest rnsdb]

I spent the better part of Sat going through the forgeries and putting them in the database. 78 Master Records were coded W or X or Y in the appropriate Brekke/Severin/Harris variety as an original/novodel/overstrike having one or more known forgeries. 78 Master Records were created for the forgeries coded F and the images copied in.

 

Together with the forgeries from JRNS #85, there are 88 now in the database. Although they are integral to the database and meant to be used within a larger context, I put up a link on the rnsdb site to the forgery page as with the JRNS issues

 

I can offer the following:

1. I see that the Russian volunteer who commented in Russian has toned down his comments. I liked the old colorful translation into English better. I wouldn't have thought coinpeople.com to be prudish.

 

2. It would be helpful to have the obverse image first and then the reverse. All the reference books and auctions we use follow that protocol and makes the research a little easier. These books plus Krause can be helpful in determing which is which.

 

3. As I mentioned earlier, a separate image of the edge is needed, both in identification of the Brekke/Severin/Harris numbers and in condeming a forgery which might have edges as a weak spot. I couldn't identify a couple of Brekke items without knowing the edge. These might be difficult to get, though

 

4. The quality of the forgeries was all over the map from dreadful to dangerous. It might be useful to use a quantitative 1-10 evaluation to filter out forgeries, and determining which to be especially cautious with, as we'll eventually be dealing with perhaps 700 or more forgeries. One of the volunteers commented on the 1846 ruble as particularly dangerous and NGC missed on a 1788 2K TIM. In my sample comparison of the original to the forgery sample HERE, I added a Danger Level field to the forgery and a rarity field to the original. The danger field (many of these are guesses) is in the V2 field, as a xf or au value has no meaning with a forgery. Conversely, if an original is a rarity 4, 5 or 6 or is missing from GD or a unique pattern, regardless of the Danger Level, the coin is a forgery, unless perhaps it's from a very reputable auction house. 19 of the 88 forgeries are rarity 4,5,6...extremely rare to unique. Wouldn't this be useful to know when evaluating a forgery?

 

5. Most important of all, it's my feeling that the quantity of forgeries volunteers submit is not the measure of success, but rather how forgeries are analyzed. There has to be a tight connection between a forgery and the original and here Steve, EX and I differ, as the image uploading effort does not have that connection. It may be end user friendly, but it also doesn't do very much

 

a. The data about the original from Brekke/Severin/Harris/Uz/Julian has the information needed to identify and evaluate the forgery. Images, descriptions, rarity, die variations, edge, metal, weight, size, fineness, denomination, original/novodel/pattern, etc. All these are essential in identifying the forgery and evaluating it. The test database has all this

b. Auction houses use those references in listing descriptions which again are input to the identification and evaluation

c. To wade through the tsusami of data represented by 800 forgery entries, it's essential to be able to both filter down and sort forgeries eg only copper, only Peter I, only plate money, only 10k plate money, danger level >7, etc. But also to be able to switch between scrolling a listing display screen of perhaps 50 entries to full screen for a single coin.

d. And then of course the side by side comparison of the original to the forgery. The examples at the forgery display page show some of this but the key one is HERE

 

As I was going through right clicking to copy the forgery images, the web site changed so now a right click doesn't permit this. I had to use Snag it to get the rest of the images copied and into the database. Together with not being able to download pdfs of JRNS for the past ten years when the technology allowed it, nor auction pdfs which volunteers uploaded to wikidot, I have to ask the queston: "Where's the Wiki?". Or is it a one way street?

 

Ron

[extant4cell]

Here's some - in 65 MB ".rar" archive.

 

Thank you for sharing! I'll download it now and see if I can open RAR. I will enter them as the time permits.

 

To see the gallery visit: http://www.rnumis.com/rnumis_research_0.php?db_pgtyp=db_pgtyp_rf_gallery

 

Over 100 fakes entered! Anyone can help and add from their collection of fakes?

[STEVE MOULDING]

As I was going through right clicking to copy the forgery images, the web site changed so now a right click doesn't permit this. I had to use Snag it to get the rest of the images copied and into the database. Together with not being able to download pdfs of JRNS for the past ten years when the technology allowed it, nor auction pdfs which volunteers uploaded to wikidot, I have to ask the queston: "Where's the Wiki?". Or is it a one way street?

 

Ron

 

 

(1) For future reference, from pretty much any website and pretty much any browser you can left-mouse and drag-and-drop pretty much any image out of a webpage and onto your desktop (or into any other folder). You shouldn't really need right-click or 'Snag'. Some sites jump through hoops to prevent this drag-and-drop but it's rare. That said, I've enabled right-click. The new Zoomplus had it disabled by default (don't know why). It was a simple fix.

 

(2) Of course people downloaded many high-quality JRNS pdf issues from the RNS website over the years that I ran it. It's nothing to do with technology. The process first involved something called 'paying' and helped raise two or three thousand dollars of sorely needed funds for the RNS.

 

(3) What auction pdf uploads at wikidot??? No such thing ever happened at the wikidots I ran, nor was it possible to do so.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thank you for sharing! I'll download it now and see if I can open RAR. I will enter them as the time permits.

 

To see the gallery visit: http://www.rnumis.co...gtyp_rf_gallery

 

Over 100 fakes entered! Anyone can help and add from their collection of fakes?

 

I second that! Thanks very much for sharing Candidate. I downloaded and opened the RAR no problem and will coordinate with Ex on getting them uploaded to rnumis. And thanks to everyone else who has contributed something.

 

Per Sigi's excellent suggestion, the ability to upload edge images will be available sometime soon.

 

[gxseries]

There's really some eye opening lessons that I see there - thanks to everyone who contributed! I've put in a few of mine - not a lot but it's from my personal collection. Bought them when I first started into Russian numismatics which is almost good 10 years ago. Was very green back then - had some decent luck when I bought some of the star highlights in my collection. Time really flies...

 

I think it's not too difficult switch the obverse and reverse around - certain everyone's got different opinions of what obverse and reverse of various coins would be. Also noticed that a 1834 10 kopek is accidently dated 1734 otherwise it's all sweet.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thanks gx!

 

I think it's not too difficult switch the obverse and reverse around -

Right Simply push the Switch Image1 <--> Image2 button. It's that easy.

 

Also noticed that a 1834 10 kopek is accidently dated 1734 otherwise it's all sweet.

Good catch! I fixed this. It was originally uploaded by Eugene but you and I have the ability, like anybody else logged in, to fix/edit entries.

[extant4cell]

GX thank you for noticing and Steve, thank you for fixing! I am sure there will be other mistakes like these, just fix them once you notice.

 

I managed to open the RAR file as well (download WinRar for that). Candidate, thank you for sharing.

 

I still have a few interesting examples to add before I move on to your coins, so I am more then happy for Steve and anyone else, who can help, to start uploading coins from this archive. Only please, do so coordinating here with others. There are some 20 sub-folders there. Start with folder 1 ("1-1803") and move to 20 ("ФУФЕЛА"), reporting here what folder you going to work on, so nobody else, doubles up on uploading the same images.

Thank you!

 

Steve, is it possible to make the fake coins in viewer copyable as in OmniCoin.com? It would be a big selling point for using this database and the gallery if people will be able to share these images in forums like this:

 

(real coin, not a fake. given as an example)

 

That's why I personally got addicted to OmniCoin, as I could share my images in the forums' conversations without a need to copy and upload them to forum itself. It makes it more useful for me and saves me time. I tried to experiment with the Russian Fakes from the viewer and could not achieve this. Giving examples of fakes in the forum discussions is a lot more visual than just a link. Thank you!

[STEVE MOULDING]

 

Steve, is it possible to make the fake coins in viewer copyable as in OmniCoin.com? It would be a big selling point for using this database and the gallery if people will be able to share these images in forums like this:

:

It makes it more useful for me and saves me time. I tried to experiment with the Russian Fakes from the viewer and could not achieve this. Giving examples of fakes in the forum discussions is a lot more visual than just a link. Thank you!

 

I checked, and like any other image you can simply left-mouse drag-and-drop out of rnumis right into coinpeople, as above. That should work fine. For the right-click-copy & paste folks there's probably a simple flag that needs to be set in zoomplus. It's not intentionally set up like that, at least by me. Will report back.

 

[STEVE MOULDING]

I checked, and like any other image you can simply left-mouse drag-and-drop out of rnumis right into coinpeople, as above. That should work fine. For the right-click-copy & paste folks there's probably a simple flag that needs to be set in zoomplus. It's not intentionally set up like that, at least by me. Will report back.

 

 

 

Yep...simple right-click enable flag in zoomplus. Fixed.